Justin MacDonald is president at SixthDivision, a marketing agency that specializes in helping businesses leverage the power of marketing automation to experience the most success and growth. He joins the podcast to share his insight into how business owners should approach marketing automation in order to get the most meaningful results.
Justin MacDonald is a self-proclaimed Harvard MBA dropout. He is a successful entrepreneur, former college and high school football coach, husband to his high school sweetheart and dad to three boys.
Chris Davis: 00:24 Welcome to another episode of the ActiveCampaign Podcast. I’m your host, Chris Davis. On this episode I have Justin MacDonald of SixthDivision. He’s the president at SixthDivision, which is a marketing automation agency, and they specialize, listen to me, they specialize in getting your business profitable, successful by way of marketing automation, and what I really enjoy about this podcast and this conversation with Justin is that we get to talk about the mindset, the ideal mindset that you should be walking into marketing automation with. A lot of people fail before they even get started because their approach is wrong. So by listening to this podcast, my hopes, my dreams and wishes are that your mindset be more aligned with that, that accompany like SixthDivision has seen over time be successful so that you can save yourself from any heartache, pain, waste of time, waste of money in growing your business. Enjoy the episode. Justin, welcome to the podcast. Glad to have you on. How are you doing?
Justin MacDonal: 01:35 Doing great, Chris. Man, I’m pumped to be here.
Chris Davis: 01:36 Yes. Pumped to have you. Tell our audience a little bit about yourself, your personal journey as well as SixthDivision.
Justin MacDonal: 01:43 Sure, you got it. So to set some context with SixthDivision, SixthDivision is a marketing automation agency. We’re based out of Arizona. I’m the president of the company. So I keep the trains on time and then keep flack off everybody’s back so they can help our clients save time, get organized, deliver better experiences for their clients and make more cash money. So that is my role in the company. SixthDivision, it’s been around for a little about six and a half years, started by our two co-founders, Brad Martineau and Dave Lee who about two and a half years ago split off our sister company called PlusThis, which has some cool stuff also for the ActiveCampaign space as well.
So before SixthDivision which I’ve been here for, I don’t know, a little over a year now, which I guess that was like June 2017, before that my stint was at a network of universities in Africa called the African Leadership University. I was there for about a year and a half to help deploy and launch this dream by a guy named Fred Swaniker out of Africa who had this vision in a Ted Talk that he launched in 2014 to create a network of universities that were the Ivy League of Africa, with 25 campuses across the continent, 10,000 students on each campus, creating a quarter million students of ethical entrepreneurial leaders at any given time across the continent to change the continent ultimately, the globe through that. So it’s pretty cool, pretty inspiring and I got connected because they needed systems, process and automation to handle the volume of applications and so forth to be able to scale and start building these campuses.
So I got brought in to launch the school of business and the inaugural MBA program. We did that in four months using marketing automation. Then after that we centralized all the automation and marketing teams, architecture, all that sort of stuff for the entire undergraduate program as well and then launched the second campus in Kigali, Rwanda in about five months. So we went fast. What made it possible was marketing automation. Then prior to that, my previous life, I was at Infusionsoft working in many different places there with customers, through coaching and then service architecture and then this thing called customer experience and all the data behind it. So Infusionsoft, the company, knew how its product was being engaged and how well it was helping serve its customers and then finally into kind of a elite team of practitioners who were doing research on this thing called the small business success method, which was a repeatable, predictable methodology for taking ideas and getting them implemented to maximize and leverage marketing automation to create meaningful business results. So that is my journey that brings us here today.
Chris Davis: 04:32 Great. Great. Now I’m going to jump one more step back. The young Justin, those days of high school and running around trying to figure out what it is you have to value or to give to the world in terms of value. Did you always have kind of an inkling for business and marketing or was that something that you kind of picked up along the way?
Justin MacDonal: 04:55 It’s funny you asked that, Chris because we hadn’t really talked much about this but, no, not at all. So my previous, previous life, before I got into sales, marketing automation and entrepreneurship, I’ve got to have my own small businesses that are both running and using automation to do so, which allows me to be here, before that, my life, I was the opposite of entrepreneurial. I was an educator, which has a lot of entrepreneurial qualities in it, but it’s public education. So it’s government stuff. It’s the opposite. So I was put on this planet, I thought, to teach English and coach football, American football and so that was my life at a very young age coaching and then went to school, was a English and journalism and literature teacher and a football coach and coached high school football and college football until ultimately I came to a realization, I think like many entrepreneurs actually do. I just didn’t see it as entrepreneurship at the time, of being called to something great and meaningful to have an impact in the world, which the vehicle for me was football and teaching and so forth.
Then when that gets in tension with the simplicity of things that you actually want in your life, to be home and to be present with your family and so forth, and this desire to just not let life pass you by and to make sure you’re actually living life for today and so for me, that came to a head where I was spending all my time investing in other people’s boys and I was at a point where I started … I was neglecting the only boys that mattered in the world and for whom I was actually responsible, which was my own three. So I just crumpled it up and threw it away. In that, I had created some entrepreneurial things. I started a little small business that I was even sort of afraid to call a business. Then that’s where my world began to open up into how to create and how to have impact and how to monetize it through entrepreneurship.
Chris Davis: 06:49 Got it. Great, man. I love to ask that question because many entrepreneurs resonate strongly with the people on the podcast once they understand them and I know with you saying, “Listen, I had to shift the focus to mine. What good am I to save every, all the other boys out there if I lose my three?” Just understanding that why as a driver and to see where you are at today, it’s really enabling. I know for me it’s encouraging just to hear people’s story, but speaking of where you’re at today, the reason why I’m really excited about this podcast is because of the work that SixthDivision is doing and I guess even when I say the work you all are doing, that still minimizes it because I feel like the biggest value that you all have given to the marketing automation space is your approach on marketing automation, how to get businesses to set up and sustain the systems that you put in place.
It’s very much different than what most people do, the average entrepreneur hears about marketing automation, they’re either sold on it by somebody making a big promise and they come in thinking, “I just need this automation, I just need this automation and then I’m good to go. I’ve automated my business,” and you all are a very rare agency that does not allow that approach to be the approach. You guys have a very different way that you help the business owner get set up. Can you talk a little bit about your approach?
Justin MacDonal: 08:19 Yeah, for sure. The promise, you mentioned the promise of automation, automation when leveraged, installed, implemented, adopted into your business can help you amplify and magnify your impact, amplify your team, amplify your leadership, create a consistent and incredible customer or client journey and it gives you, ultimately as an entrepreneur, it gives you peace of mind and the biggest thing is it gives you profit. I don’t just mean profit in cash money, which of course it can do, that’s where most people start to look at automation, especially when they start talking about marketing funnels and stuff. But it creates another type of profit in a few key areas, time profit being one of the most valuable, and then this other emotional profit to know that my stuff’s handled, my clients are getting handled, they’re getting the experience that I, as the entrepreneur, designed for them or that my team all agreed to design for them and that’s actually what’s happening, they’re getting … Then finally I’ve got visibility to know what’s happening or if something’s not going the way that I wanted.
That’s what creates predictability, which is ultimately what I think entrepreneurs are really reaching for it. So we’ve got a lot of sayings. So we’ve got a lot of metaphors or one liners or things that are kind of sticky, but one of those is that marketing automation done right makes you profits and marketing automation done wrong makes you tired. Most people do, they get tired. They see the promise and the benefit of marketing automation because it is real, but there’s a gap between the aspiration of it and the reality of it producing those meaningful results in your business and that gap is foggy. People don’t have clarity on what it actually takes to get from this idea of the value of marketing automation and then the actuality, right, the reality of the value of that.
So that’s the first thing. So for us, it’s helping entrepreneurs and their teams, small business owners. It’s helping them get really, really clear on what are you trying to actually have happen and what role does marketing automation play in that, right, and where are you going to leverage it to create those benefits, those profits, those profit factors, so to speak, in both time, money, energy and so forth. So we have a process that we work with that creates that clarity and it creates that organization, that ultimately the ideas is clarity on what ideas you could be doing, prioritization on which ones you want to be doing based on what you say is most meaningful in your business, right? Maybe it’s time savings right now. Maybe it’s amplifying your team. Maybe it’s visibility in things that are actually already happening, you just don’t see where it is or maybe it’s pushing the gas pedal more and creating more revenue growth, right?
You can do anything you want in your business. You just can’t do everything you want in your business right now. So it’s helping people get clear on what would produce the most meaningful results that then you can leverage that profit, right? Whether that’s time or finances or emotional profit, you can shrewdly reallocate that in other places in your business that’s going to produce more meaningful results. Just as a quick use case or a quick example, we’ll hear things like, “Oh man, I can’t get this webinar launched. All the tech is overwhelming me and I can’t get this done and this done, or whatever it is.” The way we would approach that would be something like, “Well, instead of figuring out and trying to brute force through how to get this webinar launched, is there another place in your business you actually could automate that could save you or someone on your team a tremendous amount of time really quickly that would produce the time margin or even the financial margin to go and just knock that webinar out much more quickly by either you doing it yourself or by being able to just hire somebody to do it for you, right?”
So it’s looking across the business and understanding that automation plays a role across the entire business, not just from top of funnel, the middle of funnel stuff and conversion stuff, but even in your client, your customer journey and fulfillment as well as your back office, your finance and so forth. So it’s fully leveraging automation to get results that produce the most meaningful outcome in your business today.
Chris Davis: 12:29 Yeah, and the truth is it’s really unattractive to do it the right way. Unfortunately, Justin, right? Like us-
Justin MacDonal: 12:38 [inaudible 00:12:38], man.
Chris Davis: 12:39 Us who know the power of it, we get excited, we get excited about sitting down, talking through your processes, mapping out your journeys, identifying your segments, and really by blueprinting how are we going to reach that goal and a lot of times how it should be done is not how the business owner’s thinking. In their mind, they’re like, “I just need to run a webinar every week and then I’ll make $5,000 every webinar and then I can increase that to two and then before you know it I’ll be a millionaire running webinars.” It’s like, “Well, let’s step back and say why webinars? Let’s talk about some of those processes in your business and that is the part that you really have to be committed to growth,” right? To be able to step back and postpone what you thought would be the way or how you want it.
Because in marketing automation, I guess we could say in digital marketing in general, once someone learns a strategy, they think that is it. Like, “Oh, I know what a landing page is. We need landing pages for everything. Let’s do a landing page before they pay us so that then they could fill it out and then pay us.” It’s like, “No, no. No, no, no, no, no. You don’t put a landing page before your payment page.” If they want to pay, you need to get them the payment form immediately. But when they get these tools and strategies with no real tutelage to go along with it, it postpones everything that you mentioned, right, and that’s where the tired comes from because I want to get involved with marketing automation. I want it to be fun. I want it to be sexy. I want to take pictures and put them on social media and show how it took me five minutes to generate $10,000 and how you could do it too and that’s just not the truth.
So Justin, you guys have been on the war front for many years, many wounds, many battles fought. You’ve seen this in so many capacities. What other trends or I could say what other … This approach, this is what I call irresponsible approach to marketing automation where you’re just saying, “Hey, do this for me and go to Odesk or Elance, whatever it’s called now. Hire somebody who has all of these credentials listed as they can do it,” and then they hire them and of course it doesn’t work. What are some other telltale signs or some other trends that you guys have seen on the battle front of implementation that people should be mindful and look out for?
Justin MacDonal: 15:09 Oh, man. I love this conversation. It’s exciting stuff, man. We’re going to have to do more of these. So let me give you a couple more of those one liners. Attribution to SixthDivision but some of these come from different members of our team. Some of these come from Brad and we just adopt them. So, one of those on the money thing you talked about, “Hey, let’s put a landing page.” I mean, we oftentimes, we inject unnecessary things into our client journey. So I’ve got a belief of thou shalt make it easy for someone to give you money, like it’s the cardinal rule of business. Make it easy for the exchange to actually happen and a lot of times we don’t do that. So start there, make it easy. Second thing on this idea of it’s not sexy. Man, I know, but you know what is sexy, sexy is having automation actually work, having visibility on how it’s working, having a process that can create a rhythm and a calm, organized business. That’s what’s sexy.
People, entrepreneurs think the frenetic energy and all that stuff is sexy. But it doesn’t literally. I mean, if that doesn’t resonate with you, this idea of marketing automation makes you money or it makes you tired when it’s done wrong, then you haven’t been playing the game very long because it can get you. So we’ve got another saying, which is the only real shortcut is to do it right the first time. It only always forever will come back and bite you when you take shortcuts. Now, that is, I will say in the same breath, we also adopt a lean approach of your version one launched is better than version none sitting in the garage. You’ve got to launch and iterate and come back to it. So there’s a balance between getting things deployed and doing the “right”, so it’s about doing things as simple as possible and only as complex as necessary. That’s the key. Another way we talk about it is start simple and get fancy later if necessary, and oftentimes it’s not necessary. So those are a couple things I think around the mindset of stuff that we were talking about. Here’s another really important one. Basically, and this is probably a better life adage beyond just marketing automation, do things today that won’t make your future self hate you.
Chris Davis: 17:19 Yes, yes.
Justin MacDonal: 17:21 Right, it’s like, yeah, do things today that are going to give you the insights that you want tomorrow or do things today that are going to make you be grateful for your past self who is like, “You know what? I took the extra time to do this right. I took the time to simplify what I’m trying to do so I could actually create something that’s more stable or more more sound.” You mentioned a couple other things that come to mind when you talked about like Odesk or Upwork or something, I love Upwork. I think it’s a great way for entrepreneurs, especially small teams or solopreneurs to expand and extend themselves, to multiply themselves and what they’re able to do. The common pitfall in that is there’s this, I don’t know, this myth that, “Hey, I’ll just get this technology and things are going to work and be easy.” Then we realize, well that’s not totally true. I need somebody who has the skillset to make it actually easy.
So then it’s, “Okay, great. Who has those skillsets and where can I get them for cheap?” So we go to freelancer networks like Upwork, which is a phenomenal platform and then we try to, oftentimes we try to throw something over the wall like, “Hey, just go make this happen.” The clarity of the expectations, the clarity of the outcomes we want aren’t documented real well. Entrepreneurs are, I love entrepreneurs, I am an entrepreneur, but we’re terrible guessers. We’re often terrible communicators and a lot of times we are terrible leaders and terrible managers. So we go get a freelancer or a few different freelancers and we expect them to just do what we haven’t even articulated and we also, oftentimes entrepreneurs try to absolve themselves of the irrefutable responsibility of leadership. Even if I’m just leading a freelancer doing a graphic design for me for 10 bucks or 50 bucks or whatever, you have an obligation to lead. It’s just a little bit, it’s a lighter, lesser scope of leadership than if you had a full time employee, but you are not absolved from that leadership.
Then the final thing that comes to mind when I think about freelancers and so forth is a lot of marketing automation or digital marketing consultants or freelancers or whatever, they tend to position themselves as all-in-one gurus or experts or that what they’re doing is actually really, really complicated or highly, highly skilled and while there’s a tremendous amount of skill in some of that, a lot of times what they’re doing, when you’re just clicking and dropping and you’re just sort of technically executing on something without any organization, without planning, without a blueprint or a game plan, all you’re really doing is hanging digital drywall. I mean, it’s the equivalent of digital manual labor and there’s an inflation oftentimes of the prices people will charge to do something that is no more than a digital manual skillset, right?
So the economy will catch up to that. But it’s hard for entrepreneurs because they don’t have a lot of time. It’s hard for them to vet and zest through, “Do I need digital drywall?” Which somebody’s got to hang it, right?
Chris Davis: 17:21 Right.
Justin MacDonal: 20:27 Or do I need an [inaudible 00:20:28] or do I need a designer? Knowing what those functions are for what you’re trying to accomplish is a heightened skill set that entrepreneurs will need to grow. Entrepreneurs of the future will need to grow their ability to determine, do I need an architect or do I need an engineer?
Chris Davis: 20:44 Right. You know what, I’m so glad you touched on the leadership piece because honestly when you look at, and I know you’ve seen this, when you look at the failure rate of small businesses, especially in the first five years, it is primarily due to a lack of leadership and that leadership comes from the business owner not understanding when they just … When they said, “I want to start a business.” They didn’t realize how many hats they just put on and the biggest one is leadership. So instead of encompassing that leadership, they look for skilled labor to do what they … To be responsible for what they themselves should be responsible for. It’s all about educating yourself, as the CEO, it’s your responsibility to understand how your business is going to run. You cannot just go and hire somebody and say, “Hey, I need help defining my business.” Right? That’s your responsibility to know. You don’t have to know all the details, right? You don’t need to know every single little bitty detail, but you need to know enough to be responsible of the people who are manning the systems, whether it’s technology or a human being.
I see, oh man, I’m so glad you’ve mentioned it because that’s what I see a whole lot is that we entrepreneurs by in a wide variety just really lack leadership skills and it’s not limited to entrepreneurs. A lot of startups, they lack that leadership skill and capacity and even the ability to grow leaders from within their organization. You’ll see companies who can do that, who do pay attention to leadership, they’re the ones that can stay lean and sustain the test of time. it looks confusing, you’re like, “How are they doing it?” But there’s a lot of intangibles and most of the time it’s leadership. Justin, one of the things you’ve mentioned as well is people going to Odesk and what is it called again? I keep saying, that dates me. It’s Upwork. Yeah.
Justin MacDonal: 22:47 Upwork. It’s only been that way for two years or so. Don’t worry about it.
Chris Davis: 22:49 No. Technology moves so fast. I still have Upword, Odesk and Elance in in my mind, but I think Upwork bought both of them. But anyways, in that approach to going, I think it’s again, that promise of quick results that, “Let me just hire somebody really quick to do it,” assuming what they’re telling them to do is right, A, and B, assuming that you know what to tell them to do.
Justin MacDonal: 23:13 Exactly.
Chris Davis: 23:15 Those are two huge assumptions and what happen is you’ll waste a whole lot of money. The flip side is if you know exactly what to tell them to do, because you know what you’re doing, you can save a whole lot of money by being very specific with the task. Now, I bring that up to say, I know you all don’t work with everybody. So for our listeners, I want you to kind of detail you’re your target avatar because there may be somebody listening that has tried that, that has done all of the wrong steps and they may be thinking right now, “Well, wait a minute, should I try SixthDivision? Or where do I go then?” I was excited when we ran into each other at Activate to see that you guys were using the platform, getting certified in the platform or whatnot so you can serve our audience better. How can people in our audience determine if their business as is right now is a good fit for SixthDivision?
Justin MacDonal: 24:11 Oh yeah. Awesome question. Yeah, first I will say that I am, we are pumped about being in ActiveCampaign space. Activate really, really solidified that for me and affirmed that we’ve been kind of checking it out and seeing how your company thinks about software and how it thinks about helping small businesses via that software. Bottom line, punchline is you get it. You get it and what you get is this idea that automation, the appropriate amount of technology in automation creates margin, some of that profit I was talking about, to enhance the entrepreneur and his or her teams, right? To ultimately not to set it and forget it, but to enhance and expand the, ultimately, the experience that we as business people, that we can create for our customers, our clients, our leads and our prospects and the fact that you guys think that way, you understand that, your technology understands that is what’s most exciting for us because that’s where the power of marketing automation really comes in. That’s when we really like to work with people.
We move beyond this idea of just thinking of funnels and we want to upgrade that thinking from things like funnels to things like a journey and the experience [inaudible 00:25:26] and how humans interact internally, our end users, our employees, how they interact with that technology. So anyway, we’re really pumped about the space, about the ecosystem you guys have created and are creating and about the way your software goes out to empower entrepreneurs and their teams, because that’s what ultimately gets us passionate. So I’ll give you a little more info to your question specifically around who the ideal clients or businesses are for us. Before I do, I wanted to take the sound bite you were talking about earlier with leadership. I love this quote. I got it from our dean of the school of business back at ALU, the African Leadership University School of Business. His name is Modupe Taylor-Pearce. It’s this, it’s leadership is the cause, everything else the result.
To me, that’s fact and I soften it with to me. I think it is just fact. So as entrepreneurs, everything that has happened in the past has perfectly coordinated and orchestrated the present. So if you don’t like what’s currently happening, you don’t like how that freelancer did or didn’t respond, you don’t like how your team’s performing, you don’t like how your product’s selling, well great, well, everything you have done in the past has been perfectly orchestrated to create that outcome right now. That is ultimately leadership. So I think we get an upgraded version of ourselves when we take responsibility for that. Even when someone else is the one not performing, we our cause and our leadership is cause in their performance, whether we’ve coached them well enough, prepared them to be successful or allowed them to underperform. That comes back to us as leaders and that’s I think a huge upgrade.
So to your question specifically, here’s who SixthDivision can serve the best. Ultimately, it’s entrepreneurs and their teams that are up to something. They’re doing something in their business. They’re trying to grow a business. They’re trying to create a company or have a company that’s doing something for its clients and creating a place that’s special for its employees as well. That’s what we’re really up to, which is why for us it kind of transcends just things like funnels or just things like pure eComm, drop shipping products or affiliates and that sort of stuff. We are phenomenal at technology. That’s our native genius and our core DNA is technology, but we’re not interested in technology just for the sake of technology or leveraging technology just for the sake of financial profit. It’s all the things we’ve been talking about earlier.
So our best customers, our best clients and the ones we get most excited about serving are the ones who are doing some sort of human to human selling, whether it’s one on one, in person or phone sales, whether it’s one to many, virtual or live events sales, like I’m doing webinars or whatever it is. Those are the people who really we can help the most and because they’re up to something, they’re building a business and they’re building a company, then the power of automation has more far reaching implications and benefits across that, not just pure top of funnel to revenue, but all those other areas that you are expanding, your people and the margin that you get for them. For us, anywhere between, and we’ll have clients that will be low six figures and we’ve got some ways that we can serve them.
But the sweet spot for us is somebody who’s doing probably no less than maybe a quarter million in revenue and then up to about $5 million in revenue. Then teams between ideally two or more people is ideal. We’ve got plenty of solopreneurs that we help but up to about 25 employees. So that quarter million to $5 million range, from that two to 25 employee range who are using marketing automation across their business to be up to something and really build something. So that’s kind of the ideal for us.
Chris Davis: 29:11 Great, great. Perfect. Justin, man, I want to thank you for taking the time and showing us the way, the mindset of that these business owners should have when approaching marketing automation. I love it. I hope the listeners that were listening to this was like, “Oh wow, that does make sense.” Because it’s really freeing. It’s more freeing than it is limiting. If you can catch them early, man, I know you’ve seen so many people come to you, battered and bruised, talking about all the money they wasted, right? I know you cringed.
Justin MacDonal: 29:48 Oh, yeah.
Chris Davis: 29:49 Because it’s a lot of money, man. I’m not talking about hundreds of dollars. It’s tens of thousands of dollars of broken promises a lot of these so-called digital marketing consultants are making to these small business owners and it’s really heartbreaking to see it, man. So I love the work that you all are doing. I enjoy getting to know more about you personally as well as SixthDivision as a company. Where can people find out more about SixthDivision?
Justin MacDonal: 30:16 So SixthDivision.com is our website. So you can check us out there and that’s S-I-X-T-Hdivision.com. We’re working with you guys. We are excited about getting into your space and sharing our learnings, doing more of this stuff. So I think we’ve got a blog coming out with you guys in the near future actually on the ActiveCampaign blog.
Chris Davis: 30:36 Great.
Justin MacDonal: 30:36 On a piece of content called the six laws of implementation. So, it’ll go through more specifically some of the things we were just chatting about at a high level today. So I think that’ll be a great space. Then yeah, I mean, I mean, we’re pumped about what you guys are doing and joining forces here and providing value for you, your clients, the partner space and so forth because we love this game called marketing automation and we love how it helps people play this game called entrepreneurship. So, I appreciate it, man.
Chris Davis: 31:03 Yeah, yeah. No problem at all. Thank you again, Justin, and I’ll see you online.
Justin MacDonal: 31:08 All right. Later.
Chris Davis: 31:11 Thank you for listening to this episode of the ActiveCampaign Podcast. Now you get it. Now you understand that mentality, that approach to marketing automation that you should have. If you’re a business owner that’s non-techie, this is your freedom moment. This is going to free you from being enslaved by freelancers who don’t know what they’re doing and quite frankly, it’s going to require you to do some upfront work, some work to understand how things work at a top level and how your entire business, how you want your entire business to flow. If you are a digital marketer, a consultant, a potential consultant of ours, this lets you know the approach that you should be taking as a responsible consultant in helping businesses grow. It is not about the technology in itself. It’s about what the business is doing, could be doing and should be doing immediately right now to be successful and how technology can aid them in that process.
So excited to have a company like SixthDivision on board with ActiveCampaign. If this is your first time listening to the ActiveCampaign Podcast, this is my personal invitation to you to join the family of listeners who are getting this type of value every week from the ActiveCampaign Podcast. We’re in iTunes, Stitcher Radio, Google Play, SoundCloud, anywhere where you can subscribe to a podcast where there become a subscriber. Don’t miss another episode and hopefully I would like you to be a guest, who knows, you could be the next guest on the ActiveCampaign Podcast and look while you’re in iTunes, please leave us a five star rating and review. It helps us get the word out. It helps vet us to people who do not know of the podcast. It helps them find us, so help us help you and others like yourself by leaving a five star rating and review.
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