Bill Joy is an expert in leadership development and organizational growth. He joins the podcast to talk through his approach to helping businesses drive growth by shaping effective leaders. Learn about “coachability” and the six motivational drivers you can employ to understand and shape an effective team of leaders.
Chris Davis: 00:24 Welcome to another episode of ActiveCampaign Podcast. In this episode, I am joined by Bill Joy of the Joy Group, and Bill studies organizations. He’s a specialist in organizational growth, and he does that by teaching on coachability and the six motivational drivers, at a minimum. I’m really minimizing, he does so much more, and what he was able to do for us at ActiveCampaign is take a core of our leadership team and, on a three-day hiatus, and go through this model.
00:55 This podcast is going to be a snapshot of that model, and the hopes are that you can learn what coachability is, and the six motivational drivers so that you can start applying it in your business right now. It doesn’t matter if your team is remote, if you have a physical location, or if you’re just getting started and you’re assessing who you need to be on your team. I am telling you, these six motivational drivers are at work whether you are aware of them or not. And learning them, knowing them, and using them effectively will help you keep the talent in your business so that it can continue to grow and be all that you set it out to be.
Chris Davis: 01:32 If you’re struggling retaining people, if your business tends to be a revolving door, people come in, they come out, you’re always replacing web developers or VAs or employees, this is an absolutely must-listen for you. So take some time out I want you to focus on this one. Listen to it, share it with a friend who’s a business owner or employee, share it as much as possible. I hope you enjoy it.
Chris Davis: 01:56 Bill, welcome to the podcast, I’m so glad to have you on. How are you doing?
Bill Joy: 02:00 I’m doing great Chris, thanks for having me. It’s an honor, really.
Chris Davis: 02:03 Yes, yes. And the honor is mine, and I’m going to try my hardest, Bill, not to be selfish because I enjoy talking to you, I enjoy learning from you. I just enjoy you, Bill. So give our listeners, in the intro I let them know that you’re the sole proprietor at the Joy Group, but let us know what is the Joy Group and how did you get to operating in the capacity you’re in now?
Bill Joy: 02:30 Yeah, so gosh what I do for a living is I study organizations. I’ve studied organizational effectiveness, I’ve studied leaders, I’ve studied culture, I study talent. So I’m looking at the whole spectrum of leadership development, that’s really what I do for a living. And obviously then I start to look at organizations and culture that underpin all of that.
02:52 Way back, I have a chemistry degree from Indiana University, so that makes no sense that I’m doing what I’m doing at all. So I didn’t get into Indiana Med School, so instead I got married and moved to Chicago. I worked for Dow Chemical, and I was a technical person on a desk working with chemicals and stuff like that. And completely bored out of my mind, and I actually had a really good coach and mentor who knew how to tap into my motivation. And who knew how to stretch me and not lose me, and had she not done that I probably wouldn’t have stayed at Dow for very long at all.
03:28 What I did was in my spare time I did my desk work and my technical chemistry work, but then I also was able to start to put together a personal computer’s program, start to run classes on things like DOS and you would have no idea what those things mean, and Lotus 123 which is now Excel. And so back in the day I became a trainer of those types of things. And so then they asked me, they said, “Hey, you seem pretty good in this space. How about if you do some teamwork?” And then that’s when I learned this whole communication effectiveness, organizational effectiveness, and then that’s moved me into … I have a certified Myers-Briggs type indicator, I started looking at group process, and then I went back for a Master’s Degree in Organizational Development Behavior from Loyola. And that’s where I really cut my teeth on what it means to study organizations for a living.
04:18 I stopped at an insurance company for a bit where I was a Director of Training, and then I went to a small consulting firm and then I finished the degree at Loyola and then I started the Joy Group 25 years ago. And so my clients range from little bitty manufacturing companies to great, big bureaucratic insurance organizations, to little bitty startups here and there, to bigger startups here and there. And everything in-between. And so I’m not niched at all by any industry or size of organization, but I am niched in this whole leadership development, organizational development culture piece.
Chris Davis: 04:54 Wow, I love it. I love to hear the progression in your career as well as the longevity. I mean, hats off, every hat of the listeners should take their hat off right now.
Bill Joy: 05:06 Thank you.
Chris Davis: 05:07 To you and what you’ve done, Bill. And so to jump right in, you have … So here at ActiveCampaign, the leaders went through, in two shifts, your leadership training. And it was by no exaggeration life-changing, specifically for me and the people that I know I can verify, because I talked to afterwards, they would agree. I’ve gone through many leadership trainings before outside of the professional realm. I’ve taken many assessments, you know I’m a student of self, what is it? Self-help, there it is. A student of self-help. And I’ll tell you, what you taught and how you were able to teach I can’t help but understand that it would not only benefit every business in any capacity, whether you’re an employee or the owner, but also as a person I’ve seen it, I’ve been able to use the same skills in my personal life with my friendships and my wife and everything.
Chris Davis: 06:07 So I want to give the listeners insight to this amazing experience, and I think a good starting point is the term “coachability.” What is coachability?
Bill Joy: 06:20 Well, you’re demonstrating. And so what’s interesting to me is that your group, both the groups that came in the two shifts, the way they get something out of something is to throw yourself into something and be a learner. And so all of you leaned in and that made my job easy, but then also made the light bulbs go off for you. And so your ability to stay open to the whole process, open to learning, is the key. And so, not every group does that, by the way. Not every group behaves the way the two ActiveCampaigns groups behaved.
Bill Joy: 06:55 So you all leaned in, and that was really, really, really cool. And so coachability is part of this model that I use, and it’s based on Blanchard’s Situational Leadership, which is a very, very old premise around do you have the skill to do something and do you have the will? So it’s a skill and will, I call the word “engagement.” So skill and engagement.
Bill Joy: 07:15 Probably about, I don’t know, maybe ten years ago I added a third dimension which I think is maybe even more crucial than the skill and the will. And I call that “coachability.” And coachability basically means your receptivity, I’ll just use you Chris as an example. Your receptivity to my coaching and feedback. Coachability is tested when I give you criticism or critical feedback. After a meeting or after a podcast I’m like, “Hey, I think you could’ve done some things differently Chris, can we talk about that?” Your immediate response to my delivery of my feedback to you tests your coachability. And so what we want to do is we want to make sure that people stay open to learning. But it’s also incumbent upon the coach’s delivery of the message that keeps you open. And so coachability to me is massively important and massively key.
Bill Joy: 08:04 And many managers don’t focus on it, they just might think that their employee might be just stubborn to feedback or not open to feedback. But when you really dig deeper into coachability, which we’ll do today, it’s really about making sure that you deliver it in a way that is motivational to the recipient of that feedback.
Chris Davis: 08:21 Yeah, yeah, that’s huge because oftentimes I know it, I’ve been a recipient of it done wrong, right? As managers you have in your mind-
Bill Joy: 08:30 And what’s that feel like?
Chris Davis: 08:31 It felt terrible! It felt horrible, it made me not want to go to work. I dreaded getting out of the bed. When you just talk to me in a means of getting something done, like, “Do this.” You know? And sometimes it’s not even an ask, it’s just a demand in an email or very impersonal, like no attention to what really drives me or how I function.
Bill Joy: 08:56 Right. Or how that’s going to land on you, and so that delivery, what a good coach knows how to do is how to read how his or her message lands on the recipient. And so that self-awareness around, “Do I know my own tendencies as a coach? But then can I kind of stay away, can watch myself coach you, and see how my messaging and see how my feedback and see how my coaching is actually landing on you, and see how you’re receiving it.” That’s like high, high, high level coaching right there. If I can stay awake to how it’s landing, and so whoever messed it up for you wasn’t paying attention. That you didn’t want to get out of bed, it’s a cycle, I would think that that would be a pretty obvious data point to see with you personally. But they missed it.
Chris Davis: 09:44 Yeah, absolutely.
Bill Joy: 09:45 So it’s about staying awake to see how the feedback lands.
Chris Davis: 09:48 Yeah, and I like when you say “staying awake.” It’s almost like being present in your own conversation.
Bill Joy: 09:53 It is.
Chris Davis: 09:54 You’re having it and you’re present in it, and you said something in our training. You said, “if you ever know how the conversation is going to end, you’re not having a conversation.” If you know like, “Hey, I’m going to talk to this person, I’m going to say this, I’m going to say that, and it’s going to be over.” You’ve closed yourself out, there’s no way for you to engage in your own conversation.
Bill Joy: 10:14 That’s right on, that’s right.
Chris Davis: 10:15 Or, you know, deliver in a way that could be receptive. So everybody, these are just small samples, these are small samples of what Bill taught us. And one of the things that I have been an internal champion of, Bill, is the six motivational drivers that impact the reception of that coaching and that the coach must have in their mind as well with the people that they’re coaching to know what their drivers are. Can you talk about those six drivers?
Bill Joy: 10:48 Sure, sure. Yeah so here’s the deal, so when I get ready to deliver feedback to you I have to understand how motivated you’re going to be to do something with that feedback. There are several levels of coachability. So number one, when I give you the feedback, you could dismiss that and just bat it away. That’s what, I call that “Level Zero.” Because I didn’t hit any drive of yours at all. I upset you, you started to get defensive, you started to blame people, all that stuff.
11:14 Level One, for me, is at least you nodded your head. At least you said, “Oh Bill that’s interesting, thanks for the feedback.” What I don’t know at that moment is did you learn anything from that? So then we gotta go to Level Two, which I call “internalization.” And so did you internalize the feedback, did you debate me? And debate’s a good sign of coachability, debate means there’s energy there. Because it’s not, debate doesn’t mean I’m dismissing you, debate means I’m in it and so I want to figure it out. And so a lot of times people think that debate is low coachability, but actually debate’s on, you’re moving higher into coachability.
11:46 And so then I gotta noodle it, I gotta internalize it. And then the next level is I gotta act on it. And so then you actually see me act on it differently. I take your feedback and I act on it. And then the next level is I sustain it and I keep doing it, and I do it. And then the highest level is I’ve learned so much from this conversation I’m actually going to teach other people. And so I’m going to give other people tips about it. But it all starts with my delivery and my ability to package the message so it resonates with you.
12:17 So the six motivational drivers, there’s a little bit of a Myers-Briggs kind of foundation here, but there’s not a direct tie. So we can’t say that Myers-Briggs is linked to these but you might be able to hear some of Myers-Briggs language. Some people use DISC profile, you might look at DISC and say, “Oh okay, I can see DISC in some of these.” I’ll give you an example. For example, one of the drives that we talk about is achievement. And so I’m in pursuit of getting something done, right? Well all styles, I’ll just use DISC as an example, drive, dominant influence, conscientiousness, and steadiness, those are all achievers. So I can’t say, “Oh the Ds are the achievers, or the extroverts are the achievers.” It’s not.
13:01 So like achievement is driver agnostic, if that makes sense. And so let’s go back to the drivers. There’s power, there’s affiliation, there’s achievement, there’s order, there’s recognition, and there’s safety. They typically come in pairs, they typically, two are at the top and then typically two or more really float to the bottom where those are not important to me at all. These drivers are so important that they drive employee engagement, they keep people who want to come back. They keep people interested, I see these on engagement scores, I see these on Glass Door reviews, I see them in exit interview data when people are like, “I’m leaving this company because …” And they don’t use this language, it’s my language, or our language now, because they say, “I’m leaving because my drivers aren’t met.”
Chris Davis: 13:52 Wow.
Bill Joy: 13:53 And so let’s just break them down. Power, power is all about independence, power is all about freedom. Power is all about I don’t want to be micromanaged. And so I have a very strong sense of self. I don’t see power in organizations the way other people do, I feel free to talk with anybody. I’m pretty bold in my opinions, but more importantly I want to be left alone so I can do the good work I know how to do. And so some people struggle with coaching power because they seem like big personalities. They can be, but the best way to coach somebody or to have a power person become more coachable is to be unvarnishedly direct. They can hear that.
14:38 If you sugarcoat or you say, “Oh hey Chris, I don’t know, be careful. In that meeting yesterday you might have come across as this.” If I do any of that stuff with a power person, I lose my credibility. So power folks are all about independence and bravado, so to speak. A little bit of ego wrapped up in there, but you know what? I can rely on one person and that’s me as a power person. So the best way to make sure that someone is coachable by you if they possess power, is to appeal to their freedom. So for example, if you resisted my feedback and you were power, and I would say, “Hey Chris, I’ve got some feedback for you. But lately you’ve been resisting it. And here’s the problem with that. The more you resist it, the more you and I are going to have to meet.”
Chris Davis: 15:27 You’re right.
Bill Joy: 15:28 That’s not going to be good, right?
Chris Davis: 15:29 Yeah, the power doesn’t want that. I wouldn’t be free, yeah.
Bill Joy: 15:32 Power doesn’t want that. And so then I should say to you, “Hey, if you’re open to my feedback, I’ll leave you alone. But you gotta be open to my feedback, can you do that for me? Be open to my feedback.” And I’m going to be that direct with someone who has high power.
Chris Davis: 15:44 Wow.
Bill Joy: 15:46 And power does not mean positional power. Power does not mean the highest level of the organization. I can have the lowest-ranking person in the organization show extremely high power as a driver. Does that make sense?
Chris Davis: 15:59 Yep, that makes sense, that makes sense.
Bill Joy: 16:01 So then anything else on that one? You want me to do anything else on that one?
Chris Davis: 16:04 No, that’s good, that’s good. I guess what I liked in our training was you kind of gave an example of like an email from somebody with a high power in contrast to an email from somebody with high order or the other drivers.
Bill Joy: 16:20 Yeah. So somebody who has high power typically starts the email with “I.” I don’t need to say, “Hey Chris it’s Bill.” Because it’s coming to you from me, so that’s obvious. So it’s just basically, “I,” and then typically a request. “I need, I want, I did, whatever.” And so then they’re pretty short and sweet and they’re very directive, and they’re just about clarity and they’re about movement. But typically a power person’s email typically starts with “I.”
Chris Davis: 16:50 Yeah. And after you explain this, Bill, I actually saw that behavior across Slack communication and even in text messages.
Bill Joy: 17:00 Yeah yeah, for sure, right?
Chris Davis: 17:01 Yep, so it’s like, “Oh, there’s power.” No greeting, just, “Hey, is this done?” And I’m like, “Oh, wow. Look at power, I didn’t realize my good friend was power.”
Bill Joy: 17:10 There it is, there it is, that’s right. Compare and contrast that to the next driver which is called “Affiliation.” Affiliation is about friends, it’s about liking you, it’s about being involved, it’s about we’re definitely going to be Facebook friends, right? We’re probably going to go out drinking after work. We’re social. We have high social needs, we like to talk. We debrief shows that we’re streaming. You know, so we gotta talk, we have this stupid puppy I got, I want to talk to you about that. Or my commute or my kids, or whatever’s going on.
17:40 And so work and life are all kind of mixed up for people who have high affiliation. So they come to work to feel the energy of the team. They come to work to be engaged wit ha team conversation and feel this team love, so to speak, right? This team affiliation. So their emails are, “Hey Chris it’s Bill, it’s been too long. How have you been? How are those three crazy kids of yours? What’s going on? Blah blah blah.” Right? And so that’s, I gotta connect with you personally first and probably some emojis in there. And maybe some type of video because I’ve been thinking about you, or I know that you like to cook or whatever so I send you my favorite recipe. So there’s a personal connection, so there’s an absolute personal connection.
18:21 And so that’s what it’s all about. And so when you look around and you start to look at how to identify these things, our affiliation folks are social and they move around and they connect with a lot of people. They have a high need to be liked. They typically are very optimistic even when they should be pessimistic, like, “We got this, you can do this.” And so they’re kind of life’s natural cheerleaders if you will. And so then to keep them coachable is to befriend them. To keep them coachable, “How’s your week going? Hey good morning, by the way.” Right? Or, “Good afternoon.” Or, “I like your button down today.” Or whatever it might be, so there’s a connection, there’s a personal connection.
19:02 And so the more we do that, we hang out socially or we’re at coffee, the more trust we have as a friend, the better off it’s going to be. And I don’t mean friend as in we gotta be tied at the hip type of thing, but friend means do you see me as a colleague? Do you see me as somebody who you’d like to hang around with? So I gotta make sure I keep you coachable by asking personal stuff and how you doing and what’s going on? If I put you on the back burner, I don’t pay attention to you all week and then I come to you on Friday with feedback and I’ve not touched base at all with you, you’re going to find that may be pretty offensive as a high affiliation person. It’s like, “Really? That’s our first conversation this week Chris? It’s going to be all Friday negative? Didn’t talk to me Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday? Oh, okay.” That’s not going to go well.
Chris Davis: 19:54 Yeah, yeah.
Bill Joy: 19:54 And the cool thing about these drivers, Chris, which I know you know is it’s not about my drivers. It’s about your drivers, it’s about the recipient’s drivers, right? So I may have low affiliation, doesn’t matter. I may have high affiliation, it doesn’t matter. I have to customize it to who you are.
Chris Davis: 20:11 Oh man, so good.
Bill Joy: 20:14 And that’s the hard part, right?
Chris Davis: 20:16 That is the challenge because as, and listeners I want you to go through this exercise as you’re hearing Bill explain each one, and one thing that you told us, Bill, that was great is, “Don’t judge it.”
Bill Joy: 20:27 Don’t judge it.
Chris Davis: 20:29 If that’s you, that’s you. It doesn’t mean it’s bad, it doesn’t mean it’s good. That’s just you and that’s how you’re driven, so accept it.
Bill Joy: 20:37 Correct.
Chris Davis: 20:38 And don’t place right or wrong on it.
Bill Joy: 20:39 So a negative judgment on power is thick-headed or stubborn or bossy or arrogant. No, that’s a negative, right? And the negative on affiliation is needy or too gregarious or always socializing and didn’t get anything done. No, that’s the negative, don’t worry about the negative. Just say, ” Am I motivated by this?” My best day is when I’m power and I got a lot done because people left me alone and I had all the freedom in the world. As affiliation, my best day is I love my team, we laughed a lot, we got a lot done through people. It was a really fun day with my fun team. Worst day, obviously, would be I’m isolated, the team’s upset, there’s dysfunction in the team. People don’t like me. You know, all that stuff.
Chris Davis: 21:30 And it’s important to, because a lot of our listeners are small business owners with virtual teams, it’s important to know this stuff too because if you have a high performer who is high power and there’s no means to feel, I mean affiliation I should say, and there’s no means to feel that connection-
Bill Joy: 21:47 You gotta do it.
Chris Davis: 21:48 You’re going to lose ’em if you do not create some way, whether it’s flying them in once a month or meeting virtually, something right?
Bill Joy: 21:58 Something, something, something. One of the best ways if you have a high affiliation person and they are remote from you and you happen to be in the car, and you say, “Hey Siri, call Chris.” And you’re not even on my, there’s no meeting, it’s spontaneous. And I say, “Hey Chris it’s Bill, I was just driving and thinking about you.” And they’re like, “What? You’re thinking about me?” And that’s going to help you the rest of the day, right? So spontaneous drop-in, “I was thinking about you.” It’s like wow, that’s pretty powerful stuff.
Chris Davis: 22:30 It is. All right, what’s the next one Bill?
Bill Joy: 22:32 The next one in order to keep somebody coachable who has achievement. So achievement is also a driver, and it’s interesting because we do judge on this one. I can have low achievement needs but be one of the best performers.
Chris Davis: 22:44 Wow.
Bill Joy: 22:44 So it’s interesting, I don’t have to necessarily have high achievement to be a high achiever. I don’t have to have high achievement to actually be the top of the leaderboard. So achievers, however, are the ones who want to be first, who want to be the best, who want the next promotion. Who want the sexy project, who want to make sure that they check things off. And so these folks like to measure stuff and check things off. And so what’s my next career step? What’s my next big project? What’s the most challenging thing I can do?
23:17 So the way to get somebody who’s high achievement coachable, give them a challenge. They will get bored and restless. So typically, and by the way these drivers have been around us since, I always like to use like middle school kind of as the guide. Myers-Briggs will say we’re developed by like age four, and I think that that’s mostly true. But when I start to think about my motivation, which teachers really, really, really got the best of me from a performance standpoint? Which coaches, if I was an athlete, really got the best of me from a performance standpoint?
23:51 And so when we start to perform and get feedback, that’s when I see coachability and these drivers really kicking in. And so then that’s when it’s formed, and so as a high achiever my job was, “I would like to be valedictorian. I want to get an A on the test.” And so I’d ask the teacher, I’d say, “I know you have an old test I can look at, right? Because I want to get an A.” And I was competitive, I was competitive with my table mate or I would look over at your score, I’d compare scores in my own mind. And so achievers are all about making sure that they are driven by that next level.
24:25 So if I do have a high achiever and I say, “Hey Chris I’ve got some feedback for you, and if you listen to this feedback it’s going to help you improve and help you get one more tic up the leaderboard. How about that?” And you’re like, “Okay, I’m all over that.” And so, and if you’re not affiliation and I’d say, “Hey Chris, if you take my feedback people will like you.” And you’re like, “I don’t care about people.”
Chris Davis: 24:49 Right, what does that do for me?
Bill Joy: 24:51 “It does nothing for me, I just want to get my stuff done, right? I want to check my stuff off.” And so achievers are driven by checklists, they will manage their day through checklists. Sometimes very, very, very high achievers will do something throughout their day that they did not put on their checklist, they’ll add it to their checklist, check it off-
Chris Davis: 25:13 Just to check it off.
Bill Joy: 25:13 So I could look, I did something I wasn’t even planning on doing. My God, what a day, what a day, right? And so I’ve even added one more. Death of achievers, wasted meetings, wasted time, no agendas, didn’t know what the meeting was about, certainly didn’t help me move my goals forward. And so feed that goal, you know. So I see many, many, many achievers in my work, but it’s not exclusive. I’ve seen the lowest achiever motivator as the highest performer. I’ve seen it over and over again. It’s like, “Yeah, being number one isn’t what’s in it for me. I happen to be number one, but I’m not driven to be number one.” Achievers are driven to be number one. So they’ll leave an organization when they feel stifled, their career is stalled. Goals aren’t clear, I’m working with an organization now, a territory and sales organization and territory shrunk. And the achievers are like, “I’m sorry, I don’t want you to shrink my territory. Because then it’s starting to limit me.” And they have some serious engagement issues now because they shrunk some territories.
Chris Davis: 26:21 Wow, and I can’t help but think, because I’ve gone through it but even as you’re saying it now, I’m thinking of people in the past that have left either an organization I was part of, a team I was leading, and realizing that these drivers were at play whether you want to acknowledge them or not.
Bill Joy: 26:39 Correct, that’s correct.
Chris Davis: 26:41 And so it behooves you to learn them and really take heed to them going forward. Okay great, so we’ve-
Bill Joy: 26:47 You open anybody’s Glass Door review right now, and you’ll say, “I love this company because my drivers are met.” You see it, “This company sucks because my drivers aren’t met.” You see it every day.
Chris Davis: 27:01 Oh man, it’s critical. It’s critical. And you could say, Bill, that it’s more critical now. It should have always been valued, but now with how society and technology has changed, the expectation of people of their managers, of these companies, right? Is totally different.
Bill Joy: 27:20 Right on. It’s funny because I just kind of created this stuff and it just started, and I started using it inside this model of this coachability piece linking all this stuff together. And wow, it is like the thing I talk about now. So you’re right, you’re right on.
Chris Davis: 27:37 Yep, it’s good.
Bill Joy: 27:38 Okay, you ready to move forward?
Chris Davis: 27:39 Yes.
Bill Joy: 27:40 Okay, next bunch. Something called “Order,” which I’m looking at one right now and talking with one right now.
Chris Davis: 27:44 Oh man, through the roof man, through the roof.
Bill Joy: 27:48 So high order is about process, logic, right? It’s about making sure that the decisions are sane, they make sense. There are logistics in there, there’s a methodology. And so what I don’t like as a high order person is chaos, is a mess. It doesn’t make sense, duplication of effort, things aren’t going smoothly. So let’s organize our day, let’s organize this project, let’s make sure that A goes to B, B goes to C, C goes to D. What is so hard about that? And things would just go so smoothly, right?
Bill Joy: 28:22 And so I will leave an organization if I have high order, if things don’t make sense, if it’s chaotic [inaudible 00:28:28], right? If it’s chaos [inaudible 00:28:29] inside the organization. If there’s tons of inefficiencies, if people don’t see the value of logic and data and data-driven and all those types of things. And so for me to be coachable, if I have high order, if have to have a sense of not even calm, I was going to say calm. Of consistency. So it’s about, “Is this a consistent process? Does this make sense?”
Bill Joy: 28:55 So you look at someone whose email is high order, and high order folks, you read a high order email, there are several things. Number one, you’re rarely confused after reading it. There’s a beginning, middle, and end. High order people tend to speak and write in threes, and it makes logical sense and it’s a build. So Paragraph A starts, and B builds on it, and C concludes it, and then I wrap it all up. And it makes all the sense in the world.
Chris Davis: 29:24 Yes.
Bill Joy: 29:25 Low order people don’t have the same needs. So they like chaos, they thrive on chaos. They use their intuitions, they don’t like to use the template. They don’t look at the rules, you know? So templates, let’s mess with the templates, whereas high order folks are like, “The templates are where it’s at, so why are you messing with these things?” And so if I have order and achievement together, then I actually know I have some milestones where I’m going to be when I’m going to be there. So I can in my mind say, “This is going to take me three months and I’ll master it in three months and I’ll move it on, then I got another six-month chunk, and then I’ll be able to do this. And in that I’ve got another six-month chunk …” Click, click, click, click, click, click, click. Can you hear it, right? Can you hear the clicks that go along with somebody who’s high order?
Chris Davis: 30:08 Yep. I love it, I can listen to you talk about order forever.
Bill Joy: 30:15 Because it is you.
Chris Davis: 30:15 Right, it is funny the first time that I went through my drivers I didn’t have order as my highest one. And as you started to describe it, I was like, “Oh my God, I don’t even care about the other ones, this is it.”
Bill Joy: 30:30 And then obviously experiencing you in the workshop, I got that firsthand.
Chris Davis: 30:33 Yes, yes.
Bill Joy: 30:35 And again, don’t judge it. Like you’re like, “Oh my God I’m anal retentive, I’m a control freak, I have to have all these things in order.” It’s just like okay, don’t judge it, it’s not about to be judged.
Chris Davis: 30:43 Yep, and I add a piece for all my order folks out there. Bill you had us do an exercise that say, “I have a tendency to blank.” And for me specific to high order is I have a tendency to over-analyze and take longer to make decisions because I want the process. I don’t want to just do a, is this the best decision? And then if this is the decision, can we quickly create a system around it so the next time we need to use it it’s easy and we can execute it effectively for long term? You know, like my mind is going, and all it took was a simple yes or no, right? “Chris, can we do it or not?”
31:20 But I’m trying to answer the question for now and put a process in place to answer the question ongoing.
Bill Joy: 31:25 So thank you for being the poster child for order.
Chris Davis: 31:29 Right, we are who we are, Bill. All right, we got two more left.
Bill Joy: 31:34 We are who we are. All right, so the next one is recognition. Recognition is super easy to identify, and it’s also easy to appeal to as long as you don’t see high recognition people to be high maintenance for you. High recognition people love acknowledgement from other people about their worth. So it’s just simply, “I value you, Chris. I value your work. I value …” And it could be because you’re high affiliation, “I value how well our motivate the team.” If you’re high power, “I value how you take the lead.” If you’re achievement, “I value how important your performance is to you.” If you’re order, “I value the process that you just really saved us from, and you created a process and you just saved us.”
32:19 So value, value, value. Not just praise, praise is one part of it. But do I see value? And so I just acknowledge you and thank you. “Thanks for participating in the meeting, really appreciate that and here’s why.” And so I’ve got to give you a sense that you are valued by me. High recognition folks are typically not self-recognizers, they like others to do that for them. So they were the kid who went up to a teacher and said, “Hey, how does my paper look?” And we knew that he or she had a gold star in his desk and like, “Give me the freaking gold star, I know you’ve got one.”
Chris Davis: 32:59 Right.
Bill Joy: 32:59 Because where is my work going to go? It’s going to go home on the fridge and my parents are going to go, “Oh my gosh Billy, look at that. You did so great today.” It’s like, “Yeah I did, yeah I did.” You know? And so it’s about acknowledging performance, it’s about acknowledging values, about acknowledging worth. I will leave an organization if I have high recognition, if people don’t see value, I don’t know where I stand. If someone, if my manager does the deadly annual review but all they did was cut and pasted last year’s and just said, “It’s the same as last year. You got a three on your ranking of one to five, and you’re fine.” You know?
33:37 Any of those, “You’re fines, good jobs.” If they don’t see their value or their worth, then they will not be coachable by you. If they don’t see their value and their worth, then they won’t be engaged. And so high recognition people need to know what their value is. So in order for someone to be coachable, just make sure that you fill up their value bucket. Now, some people who are your listeners today may be thinking, “God they sound like they’re high maintenance. Am I supposed to thank people for doing their jobs?” “Thank you for coming in today.” You know? And the mistake low recognition people make with high recognition is they will patronize them.
34:16 And they’ll say, “Seriously, thanks for coming in today. Is that enough recognition for you? Because I don’t need that.” And so they almost make fun of them. And that’s clearly a mistake, obviously. So if you are low recognition, you might look at those high recognition folks and think, “God that’s high maintenance. I gotta thank them for things.” Yes you do, you have to acknowledge their presence. And if I’m high power and order, if I’m high power, sorry, and recognition together, I will ask you directly. “How was I in that meeting?”
Chris Davis: 34:48 Oh wow, yeah, right.
Bill Joy: 34:49 “Tell me right now. You’re not getting out of the room until you tell me. Tell me.”
Chris Davis: 34:55 Yep, and if you’re low recognition and someone comes in, it’s easy to be like, ” I don’t need to, why are you asking me to tell you this?” And almost be offended.
Bill Joy: 35:05 Correct, correct. That’s right. So if you have high, it doesn’t matter where your recognition is, if somebody has high recognition it’s a pretty easy fix. Just make sure that you’re telling them that you value them. If they get a customer note, what do they do with that? They put it right on their corkboard, right? On their bulletin board, they put it right up there. What do they do with the customer note that’s written in an email form? They give it to management, ” Look what I got.” Right? “Look what I got, I found value, I got value today.” And that’s the key.
Chris Davis: 35:38 Great. All right, last one, is it the last one? Yeah.
Bill Joy: 35:41 Last one, it’s called “Safety.” And also some people will say stability. So safety and order may sound the same because it’s about things going smoothly. But if I do think about Myers-Briggs and any listeners who are on Myers-Briggs, our order folks are our thinkers and our safety folks are our feelers. So safety folks are about the safety and the comfort that they feel at work. So no offense to other drivers, but our safety folks are typically our best specialists with the deepest skillset. Because there’s safety there. Oftentimes our high power folks will say that they’re the best, so high power folks will overinflate their skill because they’ll say, “Hey high power folks, are you good at that?” It’s like, “Yeah, I’m awesome at it.” It’s like, “Have you ever tried it?” “Well no, but I know I’m going to be awesome at it.” Right?
36:31 You ask a high safety person, “You know you’re my best on the team, right Chris?” And you’re like, “Really? I’m not sure about that. Are you sure there are others?” So there’s a humility and a humbleness that comes with safety. Safeties are our rocks in our teams, safeties are our rocks inside our organizations. Safety are our loyalists, they want to stay loyal. They want to feel safe inside their environment. So the biggest risks to safety is obviously a lot of change and then potentially even like a new job. Like, “Hey Chris, today’s Tuesday, you’re going to have a new job on Friday. Isn’t that exciting?” And you’re saying, “No, that’s not so exciting because I don’t know how I’m going to master that.”
37:10 So mastery is really, really, really important to safety. So the best way to make someone safe, best way to make someone coachable who has safety is to make it safe. And what I mean by that is don’t be too risky too early. You ask them, “Give me three ideas in what you think you should do about something.” They’re probably going to go with the least risky, the most safe, the most known. Not because of the logic of the order, because of how it’s going to feel. So there’s a risk aversion with high safety folks. There’s a little bit of a risk aversion. But they are our solid rocks inside our organizations because they’re the ones who keep the engine running.
Chris Davis: 37:47 Yeah.
Bill Joy: 37:47 And so the environment, my language, how I go about setting up feedback with you. They will follow you and they will hear it very, very strongly. They won’t necessarily always ask for it.
Chris Davis: 38:02 Right.
Bill Joy: 38:03 So, yeah go ahead.
Chris Davis: 38:04 I was going to say in the training I know, yeah it was safety, you talked about an email coming from somebody with high safety would start out with like an apology. You know?
Bill Joy: 38:16 Yeah, like, “I don’t want to interrupt. I don’t know if this is true or not.” So almost some disclaimers, right? Some disclaimers that says, “I’m not really sure about this yet, I probably am but I want to keep things calm. I don’t want to rock the boat, and I don’t want the boat rocked.” And so they walk into an organization and if there’s a lot of boat-rocking, if there’s a lot of turmoil, and it’s a tumultuous environment and it feels unstable, then I need to go. I mean high safety folks love to get into a groove in a really positive way. And like I said, they are typically our best performers. No offense to high power and no offense to high achievement, but they have the depth. What I notice is that there’s safety and stability inside depth of skill.
39:03 So they get really, really, really, really good at something. The problem is then when you say, “Hey you want to go look at something else?” That may take a little bit of them to say, “How will I learn this? How will I be good at that?” All those types of things. Whereas others are like, “I don’t care, I’ll do a different job tomorrow.”
39:20 And again, I don’t want to make fun of these people if I have low safety. If I have low safety and they have signs of high safety, just make sure that you’re very conscious and conscientious of the language that you use in order to give them feedback.
Chris Davis: 39:33 Yeah, that’s good. Bill, oh man, I could just continue to talk and talk about this stuff. And I know we’re reaching the end. I want to thank you for explaining these drivers, there’s so much more to it. It’s almost like I feel like I’m not doing it justice because then you have like that chart that we had with high engaged, highly skilled. And low engaged, I mean there’s so much more that we can-
Bill Joy: 39:59 There’s so much more, there is. Yeah there is.
Chris Davis: 40:02 I think these drivers are good for our listeners to just start noodling on it.
Bill Joy: 40:07 Yeah, so I’d encourage your listeners to start to look at what you think your top two are. I don’t think people have top three. Some people would say, “I have top three.” And I’m like, I’ve never really seen somebody with equal three. But if you want to order these and you think about it, think about what’s really your best day and think about what really, really, really motivates you and just keeps your energy level high. And why you want to come back to work the next day. What happened? And that’s a driver.
40:38 And then you also think about which of those six when I was explaining, “Yeah that’s not me at all. That power, that’s not me at all. Affiliation, that’s not me at all.” And I like to have people rank them polar, meaning do number one, do number six. And then figure that out. And don’t worry so much about the middle ones. It’s like, “Well I’m middle-ish affiliation.” Okay that’s great, that’s fine, so then you can dial that up. You can access that easier and so when you think about that you think about how easy it is for me to access it.
41:06 So for me personally, my two lowest are order and safety. But I can talk to an order guy like you, I will never be an order guy like you, but I can bring order language to the conversation if I need to. But that’s not what’s going to motivate me.
Chris Davis: 41:19 Yeah.
Bill Joy: 41:21 But I gotta think about, because that’s low for me, so I gotta work really hard at making sure that I can dial that up and really bring that up and access it. But I’d like your listeners to consider what their six are and what that means. If they are leaders, then it’s easy for you to then use the exercise that we did, “As a leader I know I have a tendency to …” And then that becomes what I call your “Coaching Bias.”
41:48 But if we start at the beginning of our call today, or our podcast today, I think about the link to coachability. And the way for me to make sure that you stay coachable by me is to feed your drivers every day. Not my drivers, but to feed your drivers. And then we develop trust and then coaching is easy and feedback is easy, and feedback is welcome.
Chris Davis: 42:10 Wow. Which is where we all want to be, I know that when I look at my life, there have been times where the right thing to do was a lot harder because I didn’t have the right tools. I didn’t have the right language, you know? So going into it, feeling a little shaky, not wanting to do it the wrong way or offend anybody. But once you get the tools and you get the language, it makes everything so much easier, and I’ve been putting them to work immediately.
Bill Joy: 42:39 That’s awesome.
Chris Davis: 42:39 And I’ve seen immediate, great results.
Bill Joy: 42:42 That’s awesome, I’m so glad you see these as skills because people ask me all the time, “How do you teach emotional intelligence? Can somebody learn how to be more emotionally intelligent?” And I believe the answer is, “Absolutely. Do you know the driver of the recipient, and can you appeal to the driver?” That’s emotional intelligence to me.
Chris Davis: 43:01 Wow.
Bill Joy: 43:01 Because that’s empathy, right? To say, “Oh okay, so Chris has high order. I need to display high order in order for Chris to trust me and be okay with this conversation.” That’s emotional intelligence, because I care about you. And so I go, “Okay, if I care about motivating this guy, then I gotta care about feeding him.” And that’s what it’s all about, that to me is the simple definition of emotional intelligence.
Chris Davis: 43:24 Yeah, and the good thing is once you do it over time, it does become natural. Especially with your core of folks. Once you know them and you’re like, “Hey wait a minute, there’s high affiliation here. Let me feed that.” And you see the good result, it does. Of course if you want to be good as a leader, it’s easy to do because you see it’s not one of those things where you see a delayed response months later.
Bill Joy: 43:49 No. Absolutely not.
Chris Davis: 43:50 They see it.
Bill Joy: 43:51 Yeah when I work in groups, and I probably said this with your group, but it’s kind of like magic, right? You go, “Oh my gosh I just fed your affiliation driver, look what just happened! And I can’t freaking believe this.” Yeah, it’s instantaneous. Instantaneous.
Chris Davis: 44:04 Yep. All right, well Bill, thank you so much for coming on. I know you’re busy, thank you for spending some time with us on the podcast to just give our listeners and our employees some insight on the drivers so they can go through this exercise themselves. Any parting words, anywhere that people can find out more about the Joy Group or yourself?
Bill Joy: 44:24 Yeah, so I’m on LinkedIn, Bill Joy on LinkedIn, you can certainly do that. My website is thejoygroup.com, that’s all one work, thejoygroup.com. There’s some stuff on there. Parting word, yes. So think about, I’ll put this as on the leaders. Can you watch yourself coach other people? Can you be aware enough to see how your communication feedback coaching lands on somebody else? The answer is yes you can.
44:52 Once you look at that, then it’s upon you to be able to adapt and go, “Okay that didn’t work, let me do something else.” And that is master-level coaching.
Chris Davis: 45:02 All right, and that my listener friends is Bill Joy. Thank you so much, Bill.
Bill Joy: 45:02 Thanks Chris, you got it.
Chris Davis: 45:13 Okay … Thank you for listening to this episode. I know you could see how excited I was talking to Bill about this topic. Listen, leadership, I’m a strong believer. John Maxwell said it in his books, “Everything rises and falls on leadership.” You cannot overstress the importance of leadership when it comes to business and growing people, because we know it doesn’t matter how much technology evolves and how much you implement, you still need human beings. And you need to be able to get the best out of them.
45:49 So hopefully you were able to listen to these drivers. If you need to rewind and listen to it again, do so. Do what Bill said, jot down your top two. Start with the top and the bottom and fill in between. Know what those are and share them with your spouse, share them with your friends, share them with your employees, share them with your coworkers, your leadership team. So that you are all in the know, you can operate in the know as far as what drives people to be great and to be successful. So again, I am so grateful that Bill took the time to come on and share that. I really hope you all see value as well.
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