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Episode 38: Tapping Automation to Boost Engagement Rates with Mike Kelly

How can automation be used to improve content engagement rates? Learn how one marketing expert manages it.

Listen to Episode (40:26)

Synopsis

Mike Kelly is co-founder of Member Vault, a content platform that enables customers to showcase their free and paid content all in one place. He joins Chris Davis on the podcast to discuss how he employs “automated engagement” with ActiveCampaign to help course providers improve the visibility of their content, identify their strongest-performing content, and perform smarter, super targeted marketing based on user activity.

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Transcript

Chris Davis: Welcome to another episode of the ActiveCampaign podcast. Today I have with me, [00:00:30] Mike Kelly of Member Vault. If you’ve been listening to these podcasts in the sequence they’ve been released, you’ll know that we’ve been on a membership trail. We’ve been talking about these next generation membership sites. Instead of being limited to silver, gold, and bronze levels, you can now dynamically set, provide, and revoke access to content. It opens up to an entirely different [00:01:00] world. The reason why we have Mike on today is one, I want to talk about his platform, but two is oftentimes people start out with membership sites and they’re like, “Hey, I need to get a membership site. I’ve heard all of these great things about it. Recurring revenue, build a community, X, y, Z.” And then they do it, launch and they realize that there’s many other factors after your membership site is up that they didn’t know to even factor in or to think about or account for. So, Mike [00:01:30] is gonna go through some of those factors with us as well as provide us some insight on his platform and some background. Mike, how are you doing?

Mike Kelly: I’m doing great, Chris. Thanks.

Chris Davis: Yeah. Good to have you on. Mike, now your company is Member Vault.

Mike Kelly: Correct.

Chris Davis: And before we get into the details of that, I always like to figure out where did you come from. By you, I mean where did this idea of Member Vault even come from because a lot of times when we go back, there’s [00:02:00] sometimes little signs of like even high school. Right?

Mike Kelly: Yeah.

Chris Davis: That show, but tell us a little bit about yourself.

Mike Kelly: Yeah. At first, when you were like where do you come from, I was like New Jersey. But, now. So, it’s actually a really exciting story. So, it started a little over a year ago. We were working with a client who … I’m a developer. So, I was historically a freelance developer. So, web application developer. So, people hire [00:02:30] me to build X, Y, and Z, whatever custom thing that they want. So, I have that background, the development background.

Well, my wife is an OBM, Online Business Manager, does social media and all that kind of fun stuff. She was working with this client who just wasn’t happy with the course platforms that were out there. Not just courses, but wanted to have a place to put other content as well, free opt-in content or hey, resources to this desk. [00:03:00] Things that aren’t necessarily courses. What we found was that there was no platform answering that. You know? Answering that need. There was like on the low end there was, hey, get your course up in five minutes and start selling it and then on the other end was like big enterprise level stuff that no entrepreneur wants to touch or can afford.

So, we saw an opportunity here and we were like wouldn’t it be cool if we built a [00:03:30] kind of a membership platform, but it’s more a content platform that can be just kind of a landing place for all of your content, free content, paid content, membership area, and we’re pulling out some tricks with this too. This is why we met because we’re leveraging things like tags to automate engagement and give you feedback on what content is performing and what content is not performing.

Chris Davis: Yeah, now [00:04:00] a lot of times when you think of membership sites or gated content, you’re always thinking of content that people pay for and that’s separate from content that people get for free. So, in your specific case, what was it that gave you permission, lack of a better word, to say, you know what? It’s all content. And it’s all worthy of being tracked and providing us means of more dynamic marketing?

Mike Kelly: [00:04:30] Yeah. So, it’s really interesting. You follow … And it still happens to this day. So, there’s this idea of the funnel, right? The classic funnel. I’m doing air quotes right now. I always do air quotes when I say funnel because people start talking about it like it’s a thing they install on their computer or something and it’s a system. Right? But what I find is so interesting in this arena is people get too married to the idea of things being super controlled [00:05:00] in this controlled single line file funnel type of situation. Right?

Just the other day, I opted in. There’s this health fitness coach guy. His branding was awesome. I’m like, I like this guy’s vibe. So, he had a thing, sign up for my five day challenge thing. We’ve all seen this, right? So, signed up. Got the email with a video. I’m like, “Cool.” And I watched it. Day two, I had to wait a whole other day, then the other video came and I watched it, but I was kind [00:05:30] of rushed. Then day three came. I got the third video and I was like, “I don’t really have time for this.” And day four came. By the end of day five, was like his kind of pitch, like his upsell and by that time, I was like, “I’ve already moved on.” I’ve already gotten that answer somewhere else.

What I had wished for is I wished that when I signed up, I got added to an area where I could consume the content that I wanted to, but I also could see his other content. [00:06:00] So, it’s this idea of going into a store and I call it the Apple Store. Like, Apple doesn’t say, “Here, you can look at the iPhone and when you’re done looking at the iPhone, we’ll show you an iPad and when you’re done looking at that, we’ll show you a MacBook Pro.” They would lose so many sales. So, instead we kind of turn that funnel on its head a little bit and said, “Hey, why don’t we do it like the Apple Store model?” Where you go in and [00:06:30] maybe you went in to get your phone fixed or something or just like a screen protector. But what happens? You go into the Apple Store. They have all their stuff laid out like you can play with all of it and the Apple employees can ring you up right where you’re standing. It’s a very on demand experience. I think that’s what today’s consumers want.

Chris Davis: You bring up a really good point because I tell people all the time in marketing, you [00:07:00] essentially have two major lanes that you need to account for: the fast lane and the slow lane. Right? The people who are gonna take everything that you say and they’re just gonna chew and chew and chew on it, never swallow, or digest it. Chew and chew and chew on it some more. Kind of like the cow, cow and grass approach. Just mulling over the grass and just like, “Okay, come on. Make a decision.” Then you have like the hare, where they’re just like, “Where is it? Give me. Just get [00:07:30] me there.” A lot of times people just think of it as one path.

Like, so for this guy, he put you on the slow path. Regardless, you had shown him if he had the platform and the tool to see all the indicators that you could go faster, it didn’t matter. He mandated that you went at a certain pace. One more quick thing about your background that I want to touch on, Mike. You said you’re a developer, however, you understand [00:08:00] marketing. This is a very rare combination.

I wanted to highlight this because one of the things that I see online the most, it’s the most frustrating mistake to watch people make is they end up because developers build stuff, they figure, “Oh, well if you can build online. You can build these marketing pages.” It’s like, “You know what, that’s what gets you in trouble because developers are not marketers.” Web designers, web builders are not marketers. So, whenever I hear someone who has a development [00:08:30] background and understands marketing, I’m always interested like where did you learn your marketing?

Mike Kelly: My wife and I have gotten into many arguments is the short answer. So, she has told me this is … We’ve been working together on and off for like 10 years, which is kind of crazy. We had a small web agency when we were first starting out as well and she’s the co founder of this platform. Again, so much of the ideas, so much of that came from her side of things too because [00:09:00] I am a developer and therefore, I’m very technical in nature and I’m an engineer. Right? Over the years, I’ve learned just owning my own business and of course, I’m a consumer as well, right?

So, I buy things. For me, it’s easy to look on the other side of it and be like, “Well, okay. What would I want?” Right? It’s like I haven’t had cable TV in six years, maybe. Everything is just like Netflix, [00:09:30] Hulu, Amazon Prime. It’s all on-demand. So, it’s like I can see how I consume content. So, it just light bulb moment, yeah, that makes sense. We should have this online as well.

So, it is interesting though because there are still some things that like I have a hard time with as a developer like how landing pages, the whole idea of a landing page is not to have a navigation on there. Don’t have anything to [00:10:00] distract them away. But see, my developer, designer, that building side of me is like, “No, no, no. Every page should have consistent look and feel and you should always have the navigation.” But that’s not true. So, here’s the things like I have to give into that. I’m like, “Okay, okay. You’re right. I am not gonna fight this anymore.”

Chris Davis: Wow, you know what? Any developers listening to this podcast, please take heed to what Mike [00:10:30] is saying. It’s not that you’re being minimized, right? The deal is it’s a total different approach. Like you said, as a developer, I want to build the best framework for consistency across your website. It’s easy to update and it’s secure. Right? Those are the things that I’m thinking of. Modularity and pages if we need custom post types. I’m thinking of all of those things and then maintaining.

The marketer doesn’t care about any of that. The marketer is like give me a page [00:11:00] where I can capture a lead. No navigation, no footer, no social. All of those at times for a developer can be hard because you hang your hat high on, “Oh, look at how I’ve coded it so that the navigation can be sticky and scroll with you and then the footer, it can chain.” When someone says, “I don’t need any of that.” It’s easy to kind of take that personally and say, “Oh, you’re saying what I built wasn’t good.”

But if you can just open your ears a bit. And if you can’t that’s [00:11:30] fine. That just means the business owner needs to hire a marketer to work alongside with the web developer, but in your case you were able to see things the way it was explained from a marketing perspective. So hats off to you. Mike, at the time you and your wife come up with this idea, Member Vault, one place where you can house all of the content and be able to see what people are doing. What were the industries that you were seeing that were most interested in your platform at the time?

Mike Kelly: [00:12:00] This is interesting. So, we started out really strong in the entrepreneur market, the female entrepreneur market to be even more specific, but simply because that’s where we had the most ties. So, people kind of starting a business from home. The term, again I’m gonna whip out air quotes that you can’t see. The mom-preneur, like that whole thing. So we were really strong in that market just because of our connections and some of our clients there. [00:12:30] But we’ve since been kind of growing out into bigger markets as well.

So, yeah. Anywhere from like coaches that are doing this type of thing to we even have an account that’s doing medical training. So, they’re running their students through medical training. Even using, one client’s even using us as a digital textbook. So, they got tired of like cutting new PDFs and prints every time they updated something. So, [00:13:00] they just have

the content on here. So, we’re seeing all these things and to kind of echo what you were saying with as developers and any creators, I think that we need to pay attention to what’s important. Member Vault has pivoted slightly a couple of times over the course of the year and it’s been really interesting. We were really strong as like a course platform and we still are, we still are great at offering courses out there. [00:13:30] But we actually found our strongest point, what our customers were really excited about was the engagement piece. Was being able to put all your content in there but then being able to get real time analytics on what’s being consumed, what’s not.

Like, okay great. So, I offered this free content out. 100 people opted in. They’re on my email list. That’s awesome, but what did they look at? What did they engage with? When did they engage with it? [00:14:00] When was my flurry of activity and stuff like that? That’s so key for your to know as a content creator. I think what’s even more exciting is that we don’t just end it in that platform.

So, one of the key things that we wanted Member Vault to do and again, a lot of this came from my wife [inaudible 00:14:22] because she’s a huge ActiveCampaign nerd. She’s been using ActiveCampaign for years and years. She gets into [00:14:30] all the automation. She’s done stuff in there I don’t know the developers at ActiveCampaign have seen people use. I’m like where are you? She gets really into that and so one of the things, one of our core things we wanted to do wasn’t just to keep all this data inside of Member Vault. Like, yes you can access it there. Yes, we provide really interact graphs and cool stuff like that. But we identify key activities and lack of activity [00:15:00] and we apply those tags into your ActiveCampaign like email lists too. That’s kind of a key, we’re duplicating data to there as well. Once those tags are applied into your ActiveCampaign list, well now you can have a lot of fun. Can’t you, Chris?

Chris Davis: Oh yeah. The world is your oyster at that point.

Mike Kelly: The world is your oyster. So, for instance let’s take the coach for example. The one that I bailed from, right? [00:15:30] If he put his five day challenge up in Member Vault as like a free opt-in and allowed me to go through and consume it. The second I consume the last piece of that content, a tag gets applied to me that I completed that module. So, that tag would be applied in his ActiveCampaign and then at that moment, you can have an automation that responds and says, “Great. Hey …” Like I don’t have to wait until a certain day to send an email to me saying, ” [00:16:00] Congratulations. You made it through. Here’s the next step.”

So, you could still have that kind of thing, but it’s more real time. It’s more based on the activity. On the flip side of that, let’s say I signed up for that, but then I never consumed that content. Or maybe I consumed one day and then I got busy and I fell off the face of the earth. Well, in 14 days of no activity, Member Vault will tag me as a slacker and [00:16:30] then tag gets applied in ActiveCampaign as well. So, now you can have that tag respond and say, “Hey Mike. You signed up. You started out but I haven’t seen you.” There’s that automated engagement piece. So, it’s really exciting.

So, you can use this data real time, but then if you think about it, what you’re doing by having all your users come into Member Vault and interact with your content there. You’re enriching [00:17:00] your email list with all of this metadata. You know what I mean? You don’t just have a flat list of subscribers. Now you have a list of subscribers but you know what they’ve done in your platform. You know what content they have consumed or not consumed. So, now you can say, two months down the line this coach could be like, “Hey. I want to email everyone who signed up for my opt in, but didn’t finish it.” Like a I got a message [00:17:30] for them. You can’t do that if you don’t have the data.

Chris Davis: Yeah, yeah. Exactly. One of the things that you said just kind of like in talking no big emphasis, but I would like to emphasize is reporting. You said you got nice graphs and reporting. I’ll say this to you Mike. I’ve played with a lot of platforms. The self hosted, the WordPress installed, all of them. I will say that it’s something [00:18:00] that you don’t realize how important it is until you don’t have it or until you need it and it’s not there. But being able to log into a platform, it’s all gravy to send that information to ActiveCampaign, trigger off automations, and we’re gonna actually …

I want to talk to you about that because you got a strategy to increase engagement, but the second part is, can I log into my platform and see trends? Consumption trends, right? Because that’s another bit [00:18:30] of data. If I’m looking at one contact record that has all of these tags. It’s just one speck on the entire picture, but when the platform itself provides reporting and analytics and charts, it allows me to step back and instead of being so close to this picture where I just see one stroke, I can see the entire picture. I get a view of the entire landscape and get a better understanding as trends are telling me exactly what people want and what people are doing.

Mike Kelly: [00:19:00] Yeah, so it’s so cool. We did a big push, we did a big update yesterday actually to overhaul a lot of this reporting and our customers have been losing their minds with excitement because what we did is we kind of have an algorithm for what … We give a numeric score to engagement. So, you can see when you first log in. You can select whatever date range you want, but you can see how much engagement you get per day in this line graph. So, you can [00:19:30] see the trends of how engaged is it and that’s account wide. So, that’s like your free content, your courses, whatever’s in there. But you can see how people are engaging with your content as a whole.

Then you can drill down into each course, each content type and then you can drill down into each one of those and say great, well how did this course perform over time? Best yet, you can look at like say, you have like [00:20:00] five modules and there’s five lessons inside each module. You can get a picture of … Like it shows bar graphs on engagement per lesson and module. So, you can say, “Wow, everyone was like digging these first two modules and then by module three, there was this big drop off. You know? You can see that just like point blank. So, not only …

Normally in course platforms, you know if they [00:20:30] passed or not. Right? That’s pretty much the only data you really have to play with. For us that wasn’t good enough. I’d want to know as a course creator, any kind of content creator, like if the student finish the course or didn’t consume my content, where did I lose them? That gives you so much information, so now you can go back and be like, “All right. I gotta rework module three because people aren’t engaging with it.”

Chris Davis: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. You know, [00:21:00] one thing to … As you were mentioning about the daily trends and account wide, for those of you listening it’s just like Google Analytics. If you log into your Google Analytics, you’ll be able to see the trends across your website. Now of course, you don’t know who these people are unless you have some advanced data layer stuff going on with your cookies and all of that very complex stuff, but essentially it’s all users, anonymous and known to your website, to your CRM, but it [00:21:30] doesn’t communicate. So, to you this is just trends of all visitors.

Now when you can provide that level of reporting and insight to known users, right? People that you know have expressed some form of interest in what you have to offer, it now places you in a position to play ball at a different level. You’ve now leveled up because these are people you do know. It’s one thing to see the trends of anonymous [00:22:00] users, people that you don’t know that may or may not be interested, but to see those types of trends from users that you do know, allows you to be … Like I said, level up, but it’s not automatic. It’s not just because you can see that you do stuff about it. It automatically means that you’re better, you have to know what to do about it.

When you initially emailed me, Mike, one of the things that really caught my eye is that you attached these charts to your email. [00:22:30] Everybody, if you could think of like a bar chart that goes vertical, just flip it on its side and it’s horizontal. Mike, you sent me and it showed this graph of courses without automated engagement. Then right next to it, you had the same graph and overlay was courses with automated engagement and like all the bars had moved, all the bars that were all the way to the left had moved all the way to the right. It had filled the spectrum. [00:23:00] I was like wow, that’s really cool. I wanted to have you on to talk about that as well. We’ve got the platform to house their content. We’ve got the means to keep it in sync with ActiveCampaign. We can see our trends. What exactly are you doing? Well, first off before I even ask what you’re doing. Let’s start with what is automated engagement to you and how are you executing that?

Mike Kelly: That’s a great question. So, we did a lot of research when we were [00:23:30] building this. We talked to all kinds of instructional designers, even high school teachers, which we got the most feedback from high school teachers because I think if you can teach a teenager something, you win.

Chris Davis: I agree.

Mike Kelly: So, we talked to all of these people and we identified, there’s three types of special students. So, we have the ghost. That’s like our … We give them names too. So, there’s the ghost and [00:24:00] that’s the person who buys your course, but they never do anything with it. It sounded good at the time. They bought it and then they disappeared. I don’t know. Life got busy. Maybe they didn’t get the log in email or something, who knows. But for whatever reason they bought it and they have never engaged with the content.

So, after … And again we had an algorithm to figure this out, but it was 14 days. So, two weeks. So, if you buy the course and in two weeks you don’t [00:24:30] sign in and start using it, the chances are, it’s a very small percentage that you ever will. You’re probably gone at that point. So, at that point, so in two weeks, if you have been added to a course and you haven’t engaged with it, Member Vault will tag that person as a slacker and … They don’t see that, but in your system they get tagged as a slacker and then that tag also gets applied in ActiveCampaign.

[00:25:00] So, it’s super easy. It has that idea, the course too, right? Because you could slack on different courses. You can … It gives you that granular control. So, what we did in ActiveCampaign was at that point we were able to send … Like, we set up an automation. When this tag is added, when slacker tag is added to this person … Or sorry, not slacker. When the ghost tag is added to this person, let’s send a very targeted [00:25:30] email because now we know. We always try to send emails and try to like make it apply to everyone, but we know now. We know that, hey, this person got added to this course two weeks ago and they haven’t engaged with it.

So, now we can send them a very specific email saying, “Hey, you signed up for the course. We were really excited to get started. We see you haven’t logged in. If you’re having issues let us know or if you just needed a reminder that you got this.” [00:26:00] Those are the types of emails, you can’t send that to everyone, but you can definitely send that to your ghost because you would know that activity.

We also saw the tag slacker. We saw that as a type of student as well. So, that’s a student who signs up for the course, starts engaging with it, but then drops off. Again that 14 day mark. So, in two weeks if the person had started the course and then there’s no [00:26:30] activity for two weeks, that person gets tagged as a slacker. Of course, they get tagged in ActiveCampaign as well. The email you send that person is different than the one that you would send to the ghost, right? Because they did start engaging with the content. They do know how to log in. You know that.

So, now maybe they need a little kick in the butt or maybe they need a little comfort. Whatever your brand is, right? But you can tailor that to whatever it is. You can reach out to them and say, “Hey, listen. [00:27:00] I know you started this. I know life gets busy, whatever. But come back. We got all this stuff waiting for you..” But you can do that. So, this is the cool thing.

Then on the flip side of things, right? So, we’re talking about negative. We’re talking about ghosts and slackers. Well, there was another type of student we identified who was not getting engaged with and that’s what we call the star student. So, if you have a student that goes through and completes [00:27:30] your course or whatever piece of content that you have at a rate of three days per lesson or less. They’re going through … They’re consuming it. They’re like eating it up. Everyday, they’re doing it. They’re doing the work.

Well, if they complete that course and they’ve done it at that rate, we tag them as a star student. Now that’s a really important thing to know too. If you had a course and you saw somebody got tagged as this person was flying [00:28:00] through your course and consuming everything you put out there, wouldn’t you want to know who that was?

Chris Davis: Right, exactly.

Mike Kelly: Because that’s a great person. You’ll get a good testimonial from them. They’re gonna refer you to other people and they’re gonna buy from you again too. Because it someone goes through and consumes all your content, they want more. So, the star tag gets added. So, this is what we did in this course. That graph that I showed you, without engagement, with engagement. [00:28:30] We ran the same type of course to the same audience and then we … Without any kind of automated reach out and the graph that you saw started out as like lesson one, I forget, like 39 people had completed it and then there was a drop off by the last lesson, only seven people were still engaged. That’s the typical drop off. That’s the industry standard.

Then what we did was we set up a very similar course to the same audience, the same user base [00:29:00] and everything like that and what we did was we put in ActiveCampaign automations to reach out when these certain tags were applied. Well, you saw the results of that. The engagement was through the roof. So, not only more people stayed engaged, there was still a little drop off, but instead of like 39 to seven. It was like 39 to 28. So, you can’t make people go through it, but just that automated engagement piece. Reaching out and using smart automations [00:29:30] kept so many people in the course.

Chris Davis: Yeah. And you know what, I’m glad you were able to explain that because that’s very important. A few things that you said. One was that if they didn’t engage at the beginning that they just dropped astronomically drop off their potential to engage later. And I’m a big proponent of early engagement. The way that you start is often the way that you finish. Someone [00:30:00] is not very excited, chances are it’s going to be very hard to get them excited later on. Excuse me. So, when you go and you say you know what? Instead of me trying to reach out to each and every one of these, I view what you’ve done as like setting up internal indicators.

Like recently I rented this car and what it did was this knew technology. I’ve seen it on TV, but anytime I drove on the line, [00:30:30] the line of the traffic or crossing over, it would beep. It would beep. Then I would you know. It kind of was jarring at first and then I would adjust my path. When you were talking that’s what I thought about. You have these people that signed up maybe they’re at different levels and whatnot, but they have these indicators like, haven’t logged in for 14 days. Beep, beep, beep. Right?

Mike Kelly: Yep.

Chris Davis: I just signed up, haven’t done anything. Beep, beep, beep. And you’re [00:31:00] sending out these indicators internally, right? To position you to say, you know what, I need to do something about this. Right?

Mike Kelly: That’s a great metaphor too. That’s exactly what’s happening.

Chris Davis: Yeah. And you see the response. Because, listen. Everybody listening to this podcast. You’re busy. In fact, you’re probably listening to this podcast while you’re doing something.

Mike Kelly: Yeah, you’re driving.

Chris Davis: You’re driving. You’re at the gym. [00:31:30] You’re walking. So, you have to believe that that is going to be your biggest factor. Your biggest competitor is not the person you see online offering the same product, ti’s attention. Right? You’re competing with everything else that’s going for and bargaining and trying to get your prospect’s attention. So. You have to know that at some point, you’re going to lose that fight. They’re just gonna be off [00:32:00] doing something else but the indicator brings it right back.

Mike Kelly: Yeah. Chris, I hear this all the time from like course creators and content creators in general. Is they’re like who cares about completion rates? Why should I care about engagement? It blows my mind because that’s like the most important thing. Making the sale is fantastic. I’m all about that. You gotta make the sale [00:32:30] or else none of this works. There’s no doubt, but after that sale is when your work really begins. First of all, I don’t think any of us create content so it can not be consumed. The point of teaching something is to instill your knowledge into other people. If people aren’t finishing your course, then you have failed at that. That’s not a good feeling.

You want like … The whole point of creating this content is to educate people. So, [00:33:00] if people aren’t completing, you’re not educating them. So there’s that. Right? There’s that internal piece, but even if you want to look at it from a purely marketing, money making side, those engaged people are going to finish and they’re going to be advocates of you and your brand. They’re going to recommend you to other people. I even …

So, one of the things Member Vault can do is we … You can add quizzes. You can add multiple choice questions or open ended questions to any lesson. [00:33:30] What we’ve been advising our customers to do is on that last lesson, have a little feedback form where you can ask for a testimonial. It’s incredible. They’re getting it. They’re getting automatic testimonials. You know they’ve made it to the last thing and they’re ready to click complete on that last thing and they’re fired up. They’re gonna write you a good testimonial. So, like bam there you go. You didn’t even have to ask them for it. The platform did and like you have it now. [00:34:00] So, that’s why engagement’s important. That’s why completion rates are important.

Chris Davis: Remember, you’re training people how to engage with your brand and your business. So, upfront, if you’re always sending out communication based on these indicators, you’re training them to engage. So, that like at the end, it’s nothing to fill out a form. Right? Because they’re used to engaging with what you put out there. So, to fill out a testimonial and if you want to, you could take it to the next. I just thought of this actually [00:34:30] while you were talking is if they rate, if you had a rating on the form. Like how would you rate this class and they rate it like a nine or 10, why not have a different message to display to them afterwards? I mean they are prime for upselling to the next course or continuing their momentum in their learning journey. That’s the power of engagement.

Mike Kelly: It really is. One of our clients actually at the end of all her modules, she has a quiz question or a couple quiz questions like what [00:35:00] was the most useful thing and what was the least useful thing in here. Stuff like that. It’s so simple, but it makes all the difference because as like her the course creator goes back and is like, “Wow, I didn’t even realize all of this.” This is great to know. So, I mean that’s … Knowledge is power, right?

Chris Davis: Absolutely. Mike, this was great. I didn’t anticipate going that deep into engagement, [00:35:30] but I’m glad that we did because-

Mike Kelly: Yeah, sorry about that.

Chris Davis: No, because it’s really often overlooked.

Mike Kelly: Yeah.

Chris Davis: Another thing that you said in closing was it’s all good to make the sale, but you’re just getting started. I love that statement so much because there’s two sides to automation. I talk about this all the time. There’s you’re front end automation and your backend automation. The front end is done when the sale has transacted, [00:36:00] but right at that moment, you’re back end. Your back end takes off. If you think of a relay and somebody handing off the baton, a lot of people, the back end is not even there. So, imagine this person’s run so hard and they go to hand it off and there’s nobody there.

Mike Kelly: Oh, yeah.

Chris Davis: That’s what happens.

Mike Kelly: People have this misconception now that automation is somehow impersonal or evil or you know [00:36:30] what I mean. Like, out of touch. We found just the opposite. We have raving, the students that are taking courses on Member Vault that have taken the time to set up this automated engagement are just huge fans. They respond back and they’re just super excited. It’s a very positive experience. You don’t need to look at it as like you’re off floating this and it’s impersonal. It’s really awesome.

Chris Davis: [00:37:00] These indicators could even send you a message to reach out personally. They can … you can have an indicator that says send somebody something in the mail or make a phone call. Can you imagine that?

Mike Kelly: The possibilities are endless. They really are.

Chris Davis: The possibilities are endless when you really understand automation. Mike thank you so much. You know what? You talked your wife up so much, I’m interested in having her on and hearing the other side [00:37:30] of the story. If people want to connect with you, find out more about your company, yourself, your brand where should they go?

Mike Kelly: Easy. Just go to membervault.co

Chris Davis: Membervault.co. The link will be in the show notes everybody. So, don’t worry if you can’t type it or for whatever reason you need us to spell it for you, the link is in the show notes. Mike, thank you so much for giving us the time with you to understand what brought you to the space, the success you’re having [00:38:00] with your platform and ActiveCampaign. It was great to hear how you’re leveraging it and some of the results that you’re getting.

Mike Kelly: Awesome. Thanks for having me, Chris.

Chris Davis: Yep. No problem. Have a good one.

Mike Kelly: [inaudible 00:38:12].

Chris Davis: Thank you for listening to this episode of the ActiveCampaign Podcast on increasing engagement with your content. It doesn’t matter if you content is email or if it’s in a course format, increasing the engagement is [00:38:30] going to have positive impacts not only to your [inaudible 00:38:33], but to your revenue as well. I love the idea of indicators that we talked about in this podcast and I challenge you to start thinking it to yourself, what are indicators that show that somebody may be falling off when it comes to engagement. What are indicators that show that somebody may be ready for more content faster than I’m delivering it? These indicators can be critical and they’re worth taking the time and thinking about what those specific indicators [00:39:00] are in your business.

If you’re new to the podcast, you can subscribe in iTunes, Google Play, or Stitcher Radio to the ActiveCampaign Podcast and make sure that you don’t miss another episode. For those of you that have been listening or are listening for the first time and really enjoyed what you heard, please leave a five star rating and comment in iTunes for us. It helps us get the word out. It tells Apple we’re worth promoting and being listened to and [00:39:30] given visibility to. So, please do that. It would be greatly appreciated.

If you’re looking to learn more about ActiveCampaign and the marketing automation space, I’d like to invite you to visit our education center at activecampaign.com/learn. If you need some one on one help with the application in your business, feel free to sign up for a complimentary one on one training at activecampaign.com/train. We have all of these resources [00:40:00] for you so that you’re not lost, you’re not stuck and you don’t hit a wall. We want you to continue to build momentum and grow and go in your business. This is the ActiveCampaign Podcast. The small business podcast to help you scale and propel your business with marketing automation. I’ll see you on the next episode.

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