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Episode 11: The Importance of Data-Driven Decisions

Product Owner Tim Jahn makes his case for data-driven decisions.

Listen to Episode (36:01)

Synopsis

Tim Jahn believes you should measure every action you take. He explained why to Director of Education Chris Davis on Episode 11 of The ActiveCampaign Podcast. Listen now as Tim, a product owner at ActiveCampaign, discusses data-driven decisions, why they’re important, and how you can correctly and easily collect data in our platform.

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Transcript

Chris Davis: Welcome to another edition of the ActiveCampaign [00:00:30] podcast. We are back to having a guest on the podcast and this one is going to be special. I don’t want to spoil it but I’ll just say you don’t want to miss the end of this one if you really enjoy hearing about new features coming up in the ActiveCampaign application. Let me not belabor the point any further and let’s jump right into it. [00:01:00] I have, today, with me the one and only Tim Jahn. Tim, how are you doing?

Tim Jahn: I’m great. I’m so excited to be a part of this.

Chris Davis: Yes. This is going to be a really good one. Listeners, what you all don’t know is Tim used to be my neighbor and I had the privilege of listening to Tim and John Morrison who is our product guy have some of the most intriguing debates about features in our product.

Tim Jahn: We should specify I was your neighbor [00:01:30] here at ActiveCampaign.

Chris Davis: This is true. Here at ActiveCampaign and it was exemplary to why the features set of ActiveCampaign is so exhaustive, because you have a group of passionate people. Passionate people making sure that the features don’t just sound good or read well when you’re reading our features, but actually work even better. [00:02:00] With that being said, what’s your official title here, Tim?

Tim Jahn: My official title is product owner.

Chris Davis: Product owner. Yes.

Tim Jahn: John and I are the two product owners that we have here.

Chris Davis: Yes.

Tim Jahn: We basically, the name kind of says it all. We own certain parts of the product. Generally, when something new is coming out one of us will head up that new feature and then we will watch over it from the idea stage …

Chris Davis: I got you.

Tim Jahn: Into it being designed [00:02:30] and conceptualized from a visual standpoint. We’ll watch it go into development, we’ll manage the development process to make sure it works the way it was intended and then it comes out, it gets tested, and it’s kind of ready for launch, and then we’ll oversee it going out to our clients and actually educating our teams on what this new feature is. How it pertains to them, how the sales team can help new prospects understand it, how the customer success team can help their clients understand it, [00:03:00] how it works in the workflows, and then we launch it. We see the whole life cycle of each part of our product as we come up with the new idea and then get it out to our clients.

Chris Davis: It’s safe to say you two are the ones behind taking a lot of the feedback that our users present or submit in the community or in the ideas and making it a reality inside of the application.

Tim Jahn: Absolutely. That’s the other part of our job. We’re constantly monitoring the feedback [00:03:30] that we get from all sources. From our own internal teams so when our clients are talking to customers [inaudible 00:03:36] every week or they’re telling sales that they do and don’t like support hearing about things. We hear all that feedback but then we also hear all the feedback that our clients directly put in to ideas at ActiveCampaign.com. They submit ideas all the time. We review them every single day, we organize them. We decide what fits where on the roadmap. We also pay attention to the, we [00:04:00] sent out surveys every quarter to our clients to kind of see how they like ActiveCampaign, how likely they are to recommend us. They submit feedback through there so we review that. We get feedback from all over the place and it’s really, really nice to have a constant pulse on that and see what people like and don’t like about our product.

Chris Davis: It would be safe to say, just based on a lot of the comments that we get from people whenever we launch a new feature, it is one of the greatest … [00:04:30] It’s one of the biggest competitive advantage I say we have, is the ability to take ideas internally and externally, put them through a vetted process and get them in the hands of our users very quickly.

Tim Jahn: Yeah. Our speed is definitely one of the things I like most about us is we’re very nimble. We’re very iterative, but we’re also very nimble. We like to work quick. We like to keep an eye on the landscape and [00:05:00] not be reactive, be proactive.

Chris Davis: How long have you been here, Tim?

Tim Jahn: I’ve been here since November of 2013. At this point, a little bit over three years. Three years and some change.

Chris Davis: You’re a bit special because you didn’t start as a product owner.

Tim Jahn: No. I started as a developer. I transitioned over from development into product recently. For the time [00:05:30] I’ve been here now, most of it was spent developing the product, which is where I got to become familiar with it, that nimbleness that we have and that iterating on the product constantly because we’re growing so much now but back then there was just a handful of us. You just made a change and then went live and you got that feedback right away. We’ve always tried to carry that [00:06:00] mentality with us.

Chris Davis: That’s why I thought you would be so fitting for today’s topic. If I haven’t mentioned it yet, the topic of today’s podcast is the importance of tracking and data driven business decisions. This is huge. This is huge time because as a marketer in my previous life, it was the difference between [00:06:30] success and failure was often data.

Tim Jahn: I believe it.

Chris Davis: Right? The ability to get data was step one. Then step two was the ability to analyze that data. Then the last step was take action on that data. You need all three. With that being said, what would you say in your estimation? How would you describe [00:07:00] data driven decisions for the business owner?

Tim Jahn: I think data driven decisions are decisions you make based on actual data. Rather than deciding to make a change in your business just because you saw somebody else do it or you heard about somebody else doing it or your friend said this is what you should do or you just woke up one morning, decided I’m going to make this change. [00:07:30] There’s another way. You can look at all the data that is either your data, so things that your business has done or things your customers have done, or you can look at other businesses in your landscape and use that data too. It’s not just necessarily about, when you say a data driven decision, it’s not necessarily just about what your customers do but it’s also about what your competitors customers do or what the people in that landscape looking for your product are doing.

[00:08:00] To me a data driven decision is you are making a business decision based on some data. It can be really simple. It could be, “I’m going to start sending an email on this day of the week because my data says that more of my customers open email on this day or the week than the day I was sending before.” Now you could also just wake up one morning and say, “I don’t really feel like sending emails on Tuesdays anymore. I’m going to send them on Thursdays.” You could very well do that, but if the data [00:08:30] says that Wednesday is the best day, a data driven decision in that scenario would be a better way to make a decision.

Chris Davis: I love how you defined that and broke it down because as you were talking I kind of had this vision of data driven decisions are decisions made based on facts that override any emotion, or though, or feeling for the sake of the growth [00:09:00] of your business. Tim, it requires discipline and focus because there are so many voices. It seems like everybody, with the aid of Photoshop, has some image out there of what they are doing, what they’ve done, and, “Hey, do it this way. Do it that way.” I’ve grown to know that business is really a personalized journey. Every business is different, so though it’s good to embrace best practices, [00:09:30] it’s really paying attention to the data and as you mentioned, not just your data, data from your competitors, data from the market in general, and use that to define what is your path. Your business’ path to success.

Tim Jahn: I think that’s the key to. Every business is different. We could both own t-shirt stores online but we’re not going to have the same experience. Our businesses aren’t going to necessarily [00:10:00] be at the same level of success for so many factors. That’s the important part. Yeah, okay, it’s probably good to see what other t-shirt businesses do online to market and grow their business, but you also need to think about what is different about your business and what matters most to your business. You don’t want to just look at all the data from the other t-shirt company and say I’m going to do that because there’s so many other factors as part of your data but like you said, it’s a personalized in terms of the business owner. It’s unique to the business [00:10:30] in terms of what decisions and what data should be looked at.

Chris Davis: Right. With that in mind, what are some symptoms that you’ve seen when business owners don’t make decisions based on the data?

Tim Jahn: I think the biggest symptom is you’re going to be doing a lot of work and seeing no results. That’s usually the number one symptom. If you’ve spent six months building some [00:11:00] new feature of your product or you spend six months building up this brand new section of your online store and then that new product or that new section launches and then nothing happens, there’s no data driving that most likely. You just decided to do that. The biggest symptom if you’re going to end up doing all this work and then having A, nothing to show for it, and B, not knowing why you have nothing to show for it.

[00:11:30] It’d be one things if you decided to build this new feature of your product because you looked at some data and you made a data driven decision and then it failed, but at least then you can learn about why you failed. You can look at that data and understand why this didn’t go the way I wanted it to. If you’re not using data at all you’re going to just end up in a situation where you are making decisions, doing a lot of work, and nothing happens, and you don’t know why nothing happens.

[00:12:00] It’s like you’re spinning your wheels basically. If you feel like you’ve been spinning your wheels nonstop, you’re trying all these different things with your business, nothing’s helping it grow, you’re not getting more customers, you’re not getting more revenue, that’s probably … Could be a lack of data driven decisions.

Like you said earlier, it’s all about facts. Facts don’t lie. It’s very binary, you know what I mean? Whatever you’re doing is either working or it’s not. Now it might be working to some degree. There’s a level of working. [00:12:30] It’s working really well or working only a little bit well but it either is working or it’s not working. You want to learn about why it’s not working or why it is working.

Chris Davis: Yeah. Definitely. I’m big on processes, right? Understanding the process can be the difference between frustration and success a lot of times. You could be so close and just get frustrated because you don’t understand how [00:13:00] close you are and just turn away. A lot of times we all … In fact, I don’t know one business that doesn’t start out with no data. You have to take an idea of some form and put it out there. The goal is to don’t put so much work into an idea that by the time you put it out there it’s your quote unquote baby that you’ve put years into and when the data on what [00:13:30] you’ve created does not match what you anticipated, that you’re so stubborn and stuck in your ways that you don’t shift, but if you have an idea, I always believe the best thing that you can do with an idea is get it out in the open, in the public as soon as possible, so you can start collecting data.

Tim Jahn: That’s the key part. Like you said, a businesses, every business starts with no data. You have no customers, you have no customer activity, you have no history of what’s working, what’s not. What you said, [00:14:00] that’s the key, is as you begin to make decisions and as you begin to grow your business, every decision should be set up and everything you do should be set up in a way where you can gather data.

Chris Davis: Yes.

Tim Jahn: Everything you do and every action you take should be taken in such a way that you can gather data for whatever that is. Whether it’s sending emails and doing split testing, whether it’s the ads you put on Facebook, the ads you put anywhere. Making sure you basically can measure everything [00:14:30] you do. You don’t ever want to be in a situation where you have made a decision and you are now doing something and you can’t measure what it is you’re doing.

Chris Davis: Absolutely.

Tim Jahn: Even if you don’t have any data, you want to gather data from what you’ve just done. If you’ve just started a new ad campaign, after X weeks or X months, you need to be able to say it worked or it didn’t. There’s just no gray … Either it’s helping you or it’s not helping you. You need to then pick a path and then from there continue to gather data. I think that part is so [00:15:00] key is its kind of this thing where you have to constantly think about keeping in mind all the data you do have, but then constantly making sure you’re setting yourself up to continue to capture more data with every new action you take. It does take a little bit of thinking about then, now, and the future.

Chris Davis: Just like with anything, it requires focus and discipline because [00:15:30] we can operate at extremities and people often operate at extremes when they don’t know what they’re doing or why. You’re either not collecting any data because you don’t know how to and you don’t understand its importance or you’re on the other spectrum where you’re collecting all this data because you feel like, “I need to know everything,” but all data is not actionable data. What would you say or perhaps the top three things that everything business should be measuring.

Tim Jahn: I would say [00:16:00] the number one thing is … Really, you should just be measuring whatever actions it is you’re taking, because what you want to get to with that is you want to be able to measure what is working and what’s not working. That’s what’s most important, right? Obviously what is working you should do more of and what is not working you should do less of, but you don’t know which is which if you’re not gathering data upon each decision you take. I think you should definitely be measuring what is working and what’s not working.

To me, that comes [00:16:30] from measuring every action you take. As long as you’re measuring that action against some useful indication. Some useful KPI you have that you can say, “This is what I care about and this new action I took either helps that grow or it doesn’t help that grow.” That’s probably the number one thing is understanding what’s working, what’s not working. The second thing is, I think everyone should … It’s kind of [00:17:00] related to that but measure where your customers come from. This is huge and this can be done on any level of business. Whether you have a brick and mortar store on the corner or you have a digital online store with global customers. Where are they coming from? That goes back to what it working and what is not working.

The number one thing you need before you can do anything is customers. The number one what is working, what is not working question is where are they coming from. Is this channel working really well? Why or why not? Is [00:17:30] this channel working really well. Why or why not? I’ve been there. I’ve had my own startup. I’ve been there multiple times where if you don’t know A, who your customer is and where to find them reliably, it’s over. There’s no more steps you’re going to be able to take after that. Understand where they’re coming from and what’s working and what’s not working in terms of where they’re coming from.

Then the third thing I would say is [00:18:00] defining what it is you care about. What counts? What needle are you trying to move? When you say to yourself, “Okay. I took this new action. Is it working, is it not working?,” how do you define is working, is not working? It might be as simple as I made more money this month than I made last month. “Did that new campaign I send out or that new customer acquisition channel I tried, did it make me more money this month than last month?” Maybe that’s your simple measure. [00:18:30] It’s just money made every month. Every month you check in and say it either went up or down.

I could be anything though. It could be a lot more complicated than that. It could be, “Am I attracting more of the specific niche that I’m trying to attract more for this new line of clothing I’m launching?” It’s important to define what it is that you care about. What is our indicator there that tells you that the needle is moving or it’s not moving. Then you can go ahead and define, you can work backwards. [00:19:00] That’s what I care about and then you can work backwards in terms of how did clients find me, what actions did they take along the way that brought them to move the needle in what we call conversions. What helped them convert?

You got to be able to define what’s a conversion. It might be very simple. You could have multiple levels of that, that work up to the big conversion. If you’re a digital marketer, the first conversion might be just, “I want them to sign up for the mailing list on my website.” That’s conversion one. That’s step one I want [00:19:30] them to take. Then conversion two might be, “I want them to buy a digital course from me or I want them to buy some introductory product I have made available to them.” Maybe the final conversion you want is you want them to buy some lifetime membership with your [consultantcy 00:19:45] or something or you want them to buy a higher level product. You kind of want to define what is it I want from them and how do I measure how they’re getting there, where they are along the journey.

Chris Davis: [00:20:00] What you’re doing, you’re really defining what I think most people gloss over when it comes to building a business. When you build a business I’ve been taught to focus on getting one path from stranger to customer clearly defined so you understand what source is the best to generate, what the process from stranger [00:20:30] to customer, how long does that take? How many emails? Does it require a phone call? Does it require ad spend? To the point of a customer. How lucrative is that customer? Once you have one proven path that you can repeat, then you can duplicate those paths, but as you mention, if you’re not able to measure what’s working, where they’re coming from and you don’t know what a conversion is to you, in your [00:21:00] business, it’s going to be very hard to establish one path, let alone multiple paths?

Tim Jahn: That’s the key. Like you just said, you have to be able to measure everything and that includes whether or not you’ve won the customer. It can be really simple. You just want the customer to buy at least one product from you. Maybe you own a shoe store online. I just want them to buy at least one pair of shoes. It could be any pair. Expensive, cheap, whatever. If they buy at least one pair of shoes, I’ve moved the needle. That’s fine. [00:21:30] Maybe you’re really well established online shoe retailer. You’re doing great and this year you need to move the needle in the higher end shoes. Maybe in that scenario, what counts is a customer converting, is someone buying a high end shoes. I don’t want people coming in and buying my ten dollar shoes. That’s not going to help me this year. That’s great, but I need people to buy my $150 dollar shoes this year. That’s the goal for this year. You know what I’m saying?

It’s defining what that conversion [00:22:00] is is so key because it’s a customer journey. There’s a beginning and an end of sorts. If you think about the conversion as they’ve now become, they’ve needed their … It’s kind of like an acquisition journey. Now they’re your customer and now they’re a part of your company family, your community. If you can’t define that acquisition journey and when it ends then how do you know that you’ve succeeded in winning that customer.

Chris Davis: I’m [00:22:30] glad you brought that up because I feel like the more our users become successful with using our application, they’re starting to ask those question. I love it. I love it. They’re starting to wonder, “Hey, how can I measure more of this? How can I measure that?” As you’re talking, Tim, one thing jumped out to me. I’ve always said let data determine, right? Let data decide. People always say, “Hey, should I use a red button or a gree- ?” Well, let the data decide. Put one up. [00:23:00] Look at the analytics and determine. Now, as I’m a listener as well to this podcast, just live, I’m thinking, data also determines your ability to be an individual. Right? Data is what helps you break free of what everybody else is saying is working and doing and gives you validation to do something that you may have just overlooked.

[00:23:30] Like maybe everybody’s running Facebook ads and for some strange reason you’re getting a lot of Yelp. You’re getting a lot of traffic from Yelp. Now, there’s nobody talking about how lucrative Yelp can be, but it’s working for you and when I ask why it’s working you’re going to the data and you’re saying, “Listen, every time I get a good five star Yelp review I get five new customers.” Now, you’ve shifted your entire focus to getting Yelp re- All of your marketing, [00:24:00] your follow up campaigns, all are geared around getting more Yelp reviews. That’s what I mean by it allows you to be an individual in marketing and feel confident in it. Even though you’re not doing what everybody else is doing, the data is backing you up, which is the strongest support system that you could have in business, is the data says yes.

Tim Jahn: It’s true. Like you said, it’s so important to understand what works for you. I was talking to [00:24:30] Adam, our director or sales the other day. We often collaborate on just the product in general because they’re always selling it. We’re always thinking about what’s next, but he was saying how it’s … For them, when they do demos of our product, they often will do a demo of our product to our prospective clients. They’ll get on a call or a screenshare and they’ll just basically answer questions and give them a low down, a quick demo of the product, [00:25:00] and he knows from data that there is a much greater chance of one of his prospects becoming a paying customer if they get a demo of the product.

Of course, one of the first things his team is trying to do is just trying to get people to demo the product. He’s not necessarily trying to do a sales pitch. It’s just he knows that once they see the power of our software with their own eyes and they’re able to actually see and interact with it, there’s a much greater chance they’re going to become a paying [00:25:30] customer. That’s data he’s constantly measuring. He’s constantly understanding measuring how many people do I book for a demo versus how many people do I even contact? There’s a percentage there. X percentage gets a demo. How many of those people convert? You know what I mean? All this data starts to add up and he can come back, step back and say, “Okay, well here’s the data.” If I get this many leads, this many will book a demo and this many will become a paying customer. He didn’t [00:26:00] start off knowing that.

It might seem kind of obvious that if you book a demo of software as a service you might be more likely to buy it but he started to measure that data back in the day and then over time started to gather the data and then he was able to analyze it and say, “Oh, this is what works now. Now I know what … ” it’s simple things like that that if he would’ve never have started measuring that data … You’re talking about growing a business. Obviously, that has a direct impact on our business. The more that [00:26:30] Adam and his team can sell our software and help people understand the benefit of the software, obviously, the more we can grow our business. That would work for anyone’s business. It’s just a quick example but as long as you’re gathering that data and then paying attention to it.

Chris Davis: What’s exciting about all of this, Tim, you know I can literally sit here and talk for days about this specific topic.

Tim Jahn: We’re going to stop eventually.

Chris Davis: Right? What I want to do in our last [00:27:00] couple of minutes is let our listeners understand just how aware and proactive we are regarding this data, or making data driven decisions, because if your decision is only as good as the data you have to make it, then your platform should be able to easily provide this data. Internally, I’m seeing things that are really exciting about some new features coming [00:27:30] up that will make extracting that data that easy. Most platforms is like pulling teeth. It’s like ten minutes just to find a conversion rate.

We’ve got a couple more minutes here. If you could give us a foreshadowing into things to come as far as ActiveCampaign campaign and how we’re going to be coming alongside of our users and aiding them and helping making data driven decisions easier in their business.

Tim Jahn: The biggest [00:28:00] thing we’re focusing more and more on is how we can help our clients make data driven decisions. What that means is we want to help them get their existing data into ActiveCampaign and then help them continue to gather more data. Existing data, we’ve recently launched our deep data integrations. We currently have two available. Shopify and Big Commerce. They’ll be plenty more coming down the pike, but the whole [00:28:30] idea behind our deep data integration in general is that you can get your third party data from all these third party apps you’re currently using for your business, get them directly into ActiveCampaign as structured data that our system understands completely and puts in all the actionable parts of our software.

You can now segment contacts by that data. You can now use that data in automations as behavioral data [00:29:00] that can therefore direct what’s going to happen next with your contact. We want to and we’re going to continue to make it really easy to get your data into ActiveCampaign in an actionable way so that our software can continue to help you make decisions in many, many ways that’ll be coming. That’s existing data.

The other thing we want to do is we want to continue to work on ways [00:29:30] to help you gather more data. We already have ways. We have our site tracking code that you can install. You can track what visitors are visiting your site and what they’re doing. We have other tracking code called the vent tracking code that lets you put in custom tracking throughout, if you have an application. What we want to do is we want to continue to allow … We’re going to improve that tracking even more. We’re going to make it really easy for [00:30:00] you to just simply track what’s going on with your customers and bring that data into ActiveCampaign. Again, to help you make data driven decisions.

After we have that data, we’re going to help you bring in your existing. We’re going to make it easy for you to bring in new data. Once you have all that data in place, then we can help you start analyzing it and understanding what it means and understanding what maybe your next steps could be. What is that next action you should take based on, to understand will it work, will it not [00:30:30] work, based on the data. We’re going to start rolling out some different new features on our contact profile that’s going to be able to show you where contacts are coming from, showing you what they’re doing during that …

Earlier, I talked about that acquisition journey. From the moment that they enter your realm until the moment they convert, we’re going to start helping with that whole journey. We want to help you understand where they came from, maybe eventually [00:31:00] how much they cost, we want to understand before they convert. After they’ve come in and before they convert, what did they do? Why did they convert? What can we learn from them converting that might apply to others like that. That means, what emails were they sent? What pages on your site did they visit? What site messages did you send them? What SMS messages did you send them? What other interactions did you have with them along that journey that caused [00:31:30] them to convert?

Convert, we’re going to let you define conversions in our system. You’ll be able to define a conversion, give it a monetary value, have a myriad of ways of triggering it, and so you’ll be able to eventually say, “This person came in via this source, they did all they stuff, and then they converted.” Then you start taking steps back and looking at aggregate and saying, “There’s all these others like them. Wait. They did … There’s some similar actions they all took here. Well, wait [00:32:00] a second. I should do more of that. This one email campaign, or this type of email campaign … .” Stuff like that. That’s where we’re headed. We’re really, really excited about getting that data in and then helping people make decisions from that data.

Chris Davis: Wow.

Tim Jahn: That was a lot of wants.

Chris Davis: That was a lot.

Tim Jahn: I’m really excited about this.

Chris Davis: Oh my gosh.

Tim Jahn: A lot of what I’m heading up here is stuff related to this so I’m very, on a day to day basis, I’m intimately familiar [00:32:30] so I get excited about it.

Chris Davis: Tim, I just want to thank you. This has been really fun and for you listeners, I hope this has been insightful to not only from a product standpoint, why our product is as flexible and easy to use as it is, but from a business standpoint, we are a business. I think a lot people look at software companies and they’re just so focused on the features and hurry up, put this out, [00:33:00] but we’re a business, and we serve other businesses. We’re living this stuff.

Tim Jahn: We’re the same boat you guys are. We’re trying to grow our business just like you are and we’re using our software to do it too.

Chris Davis: Absolutely.

Tim Jahn: The one thing I would say in the spirit of data driven decisions is we love and welcome all feedback from our clients so if anyone listening wants to go to ideas.activecampaign.com, there’s a form on there you can submit whatever feedback you have. It can be an idea, it could be a bug, [00:33:30] it could be a suggestion, but we look at that every day because we like to make data driven decisions. I’m just a plug there for anyone to submit data.

Chris Davis: That’s important because now you all know, or at least have heard the voice of the man who looks at every one of your ideas. You do have a voice here at ActiveCampaign. In closing, Tim, I want to thank you so much for joining the podcast. This most definitely will [00:34:00] not be the first and last time. I’m envisioning, I’m rubbing my automation crystal ball here, I’m envisioning having you back on, Tim, more frequently for our product updates and some of the bigger features that we launch. You can come in and give us a breakdown and help us understand how to utilize it and get the most out of the features when they launch.

Tim Jahn: I would love to.

Chris Davis: Deal?

Tim Jahn: Thanks for having me.

Chris Davis: All right. Again, [00:34:30] thank you for being a guest on the ActiveCampaign podcast, Tim. Any parting words you’d like to leave our listeners with?

Tim Jahn: Don’t make decisions without data.

Chris Davis: There it is. Friends don’t let friends make decisions without data. There it is.

If you enjoyed today’s podcast on making data driven decisions in your business, this is just the beginning. [00:35:00] As we grow this podcast we are going to be aiding you with all types of content, information, strategies, expert advice, on exactly how to utilize marketing automation to grow your business. Make sure you have subscribed to the ActiveCampaign podcast. We’re available in iTunes, Google Play, and Stitcher radio for those of you who are avid listeners and followers, thank you so much. I just have one [00:35:30] tiny request. If you could go into iTunes and leave us a five star rating and review, it would really help us get the word out and help as many small business owners win in this space of digital marketing.

This is the ActiveCampaign podcast. The small business podcast to help you scale and propel your business with marketing automation. I’ll see you next episode.

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