The application of marketing has changed over the years, but the theory and overall approach has not. Methods of the past require translation via digital channels to stay competitive and on the cutting edge of marketing. With over 30 years of direct response marketing Debbie explains how she has handled the transition and translation.
Debbie Lynn Grace is a Transformational Leader, Author and International Speaker. She works with high level, influential people from all walks of life, across a variety of industries make a greater impact in the world. She is a 35 year marketing expert, author of the book, Outrageous Business Growth, a contributing author to five other business and personal development books, an international speaker, energy worker and intuitive.
Chris: (01:16) Debbie, welcome to the podcast. Glad to have you on. How are you doing?
Debbie: 01:21 I’m doing great. Thank you so much, Chris. I’m excited to be here.
Chris: 01:23 Yes, this is everybody listening. I know my longtime listeners are like, “Chris is excited. He’s always excited.” No, listen everybody, seriously, this is historic right now. Debbie, I’m going to let you intro yourself because you’re going to give yourself justice. I personally met Debbie in San Diego at our study hall, and it immediately jumped out how savvy she was in marketing. After I talked to her for a little bit, I understood just why. Debbie, give us a little bit about your background, who you are and what your business is.
Debbie: 02:02 Well, my career started out in marketing, so I cut my teeth in the direct marketing industry in the early ’80s. Please don’t do the math. I was very fortunate to … I didn’t even know what direct marketing was. In fact, it wasn’t even a thing in the ’80s. It was sort of like advertising was all about general advertising and general ads and nobody really understood direct marketing except direct marketers, but remember, at that time, we had Sears and they had all these catalogers that we’re making boatloads of money selling. We’re using catalogs to sell things, and that’s direct marketing having a direct response.
Debbie: 02:43 At that time, the only medium that was available was through the mail. I lucked out, started off at an agency, worked my way up in the account side and ended up with clients like Citibank and Wells Fargo Bank and Hewlett Packard and some well known companies that you know, and over the course of my career probably mailed about 20 million pieces of mail for my clients.
Chris: 03:06 Wow.
Debbie: 03:06 In that time, I learned everything there is to know about copy, about headlines, about offers, about lead generation, about direct sales. All the things that are used in the internet today are based on the principles that have been around for a hundred years. In the heyday, people didn’t understand it. Now, I mean, of course the internet marketers are laughing thinking this is not a new thing. I mean, the direct marketers are laughing at the internet marketers as if this is a new discovery and it’s not.
Chris: 03:40 Debbie, just park for a moment because I have a feeling we have a lot of marketers and business owners listening right now that have never had to do any direct sales at all. If you could summarize direct sales, what would you say it is?
Debbie: 03:59 Well, it’s basically that when you make an offer, you’re presenting the offer in such a way that the person wants to accept your offer immediately. In a lead generation, the offer would be, “Have a call with me, or get my free ebook or whatever download.” That would be a lead generation. That’s still making an offer in somebody. A direct sale is buy my program. There’s an exchange of money there. Again, before the internet, before that we started doing all this stuff online, people shopped through the mail or they shopped direct going to a store. That’s the only two ways that they shopped, but they still shop through a medium that wasn’t about going to a brick and mortar and that was through the mail.
Debbie: 04:49 Now, it’s like, “Mail? What’s that?”
Chris: 04:59 You’re right.
Debbie: 04:59 Asking for the order is basically, that’s what I mean by a direct sale.
Chris: 05:03 A direct ask in direct to the person by traditional means, mainly male or in the store, and by mail, we’re talking about snail mail. Just really quick too, Debbie, did you go to school for this? How did you stumble upon it?
Debbie: 05:20 No. There was no degree in direct marketing when I was young. They might have over the years created one and there was a few universities, but my background, I got a degree from UCLA. It was business economics, and it was worthless for me to apply that to my background, even though that my college degree wasn’t worthless, but for ending up what I did for a living. Pretty much at that time, anybody that got into direct marketing stumbled into it from some way. They were either a printer rep, or they were in advertising, or they were in telemarketing. It was all the peripheral types of vendors that you needed to use to create a direct mail campaign. They somehow would work their way into an agency somehow some way.
Debbie: 06:09 I really lucked out because it was a career that was much easier to progress and move up. I mean, really, I was running multimillion dollar accounts when I was 24 and 25 years old.
Chris: 06:24 Wow. Wow.
Debbie: 06:24 That was not possible in other types of environments. It was very fortunate for me because I had all this financial marketing background because I had done a lot of direct marketing for banks. I then went to the client’s side and became head of retail marketing for a large financial institution in Chicago.
Chris: 06:47 Wow.
Debbie: 06:48 I’m not sure you could do that today. I mean, it was for me to jump over, so I became vice president of marketing for a bank, and I was 29.
Chris: 06:57 Look at that. Listeners, now, you see why my excitement was warranted, and we’re just getting started. Debbie, I have to ask. You’re doing this. You’re doing direct marketing, getting big results, and it matters to who it matters to. Were you experiencing from friends and family members, like, “What is it that you do?” Were they asking back then what you did, or could they understand it?
Debbie: 07:25 They still ask me what I do. Nobody understands what I do, although there’s more people to what I do today. There used to be a joke in the direct marketing community, which was you never know who’s going to come back to be your boss or your client, and that happened to me. My client ended up becoming my boss. The guy who worked for me in the agency ended up becoming my agency rep when I was … Then I became his boss twice actually in the agency side and in the client’s side. The internet marketing, since I’m fairly involved, in America, you’re like one person away from anybody in the internet marketing sphere.
Debbie: 08:05 One of the biggest differences is that there’s so much more opportunity on the internet than there was to a direct mail because direct mail, you were pretty limited by mail.
Chris: 08:17 Sure.
Debbie: 08:17 I mean, you were limited by certain types of functionality, and the internet has so much more tools available. They’re much more sophisticated, and you get immediate results. You had to wait for somebody to create a big campaign. I have launched campaigns in 24 hours online.
Chris: 08:37 I love it.
Debbie: 08:38 I have to come up with an idea. I’ve thrown up a landing page, and I started to email my list and start in 24 hours. You couldn’t do that in the direct marketing industry. It’s kind of exciting, but I applied lot of this stuff early on when we first were online. Now, mind you, I was late to the internet. Meaning that I think people started to really start to get it around I want to say 1997. There were online marketers in ’95, and then my clients who were offline marketing were asking me, “Should we have a website?” At that time, it costs $25,000 to put up something that you can’t even do today, because it was so bad, and you could do in five minutes today for free.
Debbie: 09:29 I didn’t really get online and get serious about it. I’m trying to remember when I first put up my first website, maybe ’98 or something, but I wasn’t really an online marketer. It was just because people had no idea what online was. It really didn’t, and it wasn’t until the early 2000’s. I mean, it seems like this has been around for 100 years, but honestly, I didn’t really start getting serious and start doing email marketing I want to say 2004, 2005, because my book came out. My book Outrageous Business Growth came out in 2004. I was, by that time, speaking on marketing and business growth around the world and around the country. That’s how I got my clients was speaking. It was not from the internet.
Chris: 10:17 That’s still early, right, about 2005?
Debbie: 10:21 Well, 2005, 2006 but here’s the thing that I missed the golden days, because I have to be honest, if somebody has only been online in the last five years or so or maybe even in the last 10 years, they didn’t know what it was like because it was actually a thing, and 2004, 2005, 2006, you got some people that learned the internet fast and they literally reaped all the benefits. They were making millions and millions online understanding and using techniques that were direct marketing techniques, but more importantly, they started to become tech savvy.
Debbie: 11:02 I have to be honest, Chris, for anybody listening to this, when my computer turns on, I do a dance. That’s how tech savvy I am. I mean, I just want you to understand that I am as low tech as possible, but I do understand what drives the sale.
Chris: 11:25 Debbie, you’ve got this vast direct marketing background, high success. Like you said you, you were overseeing millions of pieces being sent to your clients. You’re a VP. You’ve propagated between positions where people you work for became your boss and vice versa. The transition point to your own business where you started leveraging your expertise for yourself, it sounds like it was when you wrote your book and started to speak. Was that the transition to where you started to build your own business?
Debbie: 12:00 No, it started actually way before that, before I was ever online. I started my business in 1994. We weren’t online until ’97-ish. Basically, I realized that the only way I was ever going to get promoted, I’ve gone as high as I could go in the bank. The only way I was ever going to get promoted is if I promote myself. I’m going to be really honest. When I joined the bank in … I think it was ’91 that I joined the bank. My boss looked at me. Now mind you, this bank had started in the ’50s. It was a very good old boy network. We do business on the golf course.
Debbie: 12:37 I don’t want to be rude, and I’m not trying to put down anything or anybody, but I’m just letting you know …
Chris: 12:43 It’s the reality.
Debbie: 12:44 … the reality of what it was like in the ’90s for a woman to get a job at a higher level in a bank, and that was as high as I was ever going to go. They were never going to promote me higher. I realized that my boss, when he hired me, he said, “Take this bank into the ’80s.” That’s how you know they were so unsophisticated, so honestly I was bored. I mean, I’m just going to be honest. I was doing things 10 years earlier in my direct marketing career that I couldn’t even do with the bank because of their limitations. They were so unsophisticated at that time. Whatever I did worked, but I set the bar, but I could only set the bar to a remedial play.
Chris: 13:30 You couldn’t exceed your leader.
Debbie: 13:33 It was just boring. It was like going back to kindergarten when you had already been in graduate school. I left the bank and realized, “No, I have entrepreneurial-ism in my blood.” My dad was an entrepreneur. My grandfather was a serial entrepreneur as an immigrant coming here from outside the United States, and didn’t have an education pass the fifth grade and built multiple businesses and very, very successful businesses throughout his life. I think it’s just in my veins and I’m like, “You know what, I’m doing this myself.” I mean, I’ve been in a consultative role since the beginning of my career.
Debbie: 14:08 Working for an agency, I was in a very much of a consultative role, so I just decided to become a marketing consultant. Then I found out when I started to speak … Now, I started my business. I moved to a city where I didn’t know anybody. I love Chicago. I moved to St. Louis. I had a database of less than 100 people, who is mostly people that were my friends and family across the United States, a couple of printer vendors and some people that I’d stayed in contact with in my direct marketing days.
Chris: 14:41 I love it though, Debbie, because you said the key word your database, so you took …
Debbie: 14:49 My database. This is what’s interesting. It is the most successful mailing of my career, because I sent out a one-page letter with my business card. That was it. Just a one page, one sided letter to less than a hundred people, and I landed $50,000 in business on that one mailing.
Chris: 15:06 That’s the power of the database.
Debbie: 15:08 That’s what started my consulting business.
Chris: 15:09 Oh, I love it. I love it. You moved to St. Louis. You’ve got your one letter and business cards out. You’ve got clients now, and from that point on, it’s just been growing.
Debbie: 15:24 It was growing. Here’s the thing. Chris, I know whatever you’ve been doing in your career for quite a while, right?
Chris: 15:33 Right. Right.
Debbie: 15:35 Technology changes at the speed of light at this point.
Chris: 15:39 Yes.
Debbie: 15:39 I mean, it was technology. There really wasn’t. I mean, the big deal was the technology changing and the printing industry. Well now, the internet has put all the printers out of business practically. The internet though keeps changing. Then with social media, that’s changed, ut the fact of the matter is the principles and what I teach and what I talk about has changed. I don’t talk about any of this stuff anymore out in the world because I’ve changed as a person, but what hasn’t changed no matter what I talk about, whether it’s personal development, which is all I talk about now is personal development.
Debbie: 16:11 I don’t talk about business nice, but no matter what I talk about, the principles of how I interact and how I reach my target audience doesn’t change.
Chris: 16:27 That’s important. That’s important because the tools are new but not the approach.
Debbie: 16:31 That’s very important, so I really thank God that I cut my teeth in the marketing industry and particularly in the direct marketing industry, because making a move to the internet, it wasn’t about the internet that … It was just technology that freaked me out. It wasn’t the marketing aspect. Once I started to understand it, and I remember I’m also been speaking in front of audiences since 1995. That was an easy transition then into webinars and teleseminars, and then that was an easy transition into emails because I’ve been working with copywriters for already 15 years, so writing my own emails was an easy transition.
Debbie: 17:14 Then I learned about multiple sales and how to increase my sales and how to increase my … All of those things were pretty cool.
Chris: 17:23 I love it. I love it because you saw .. What you’ve been successful at, and here’s one of the things that I like to tell people, is that you don’t have to be this technology ninja, but you need to understand how business is run and how to market, and you can’t be afraid of sales. Once you have those three, the name of the game is really understanding how that translates over. For some people when they do that translation, they’re not using a lot of technology, but they’re getting big results. I find the opposite is when you don’t know those things, you rely heavily on technology and get very minimal results.
Debbie: 18:05 Well, here’s the thing about it. You have to make technology work for you, not the other way around.
Chris: 18:12 Yes.
Debbie: 18:13 That’s the thing that I think that I like about ActiveCampaign. For somebody from the novice, now again, from a technical standpoint, I even shared this with you, to be honest, I’m a fairly novice because I don’t really like learning a lot of technical stuff. It allows you to be sophisticated, but you got to let it work for you. That’s the way it seems like the ActiveCampaign product was created is so you don’t have to do any of the heavy lifting. It already does literally the heavy lifting for you. It does the followup if you set it up correctly.
Debbie: 18:47 That’s what’s cool about it is that you don’t have to do the heavy lifting, and also because I’m a marketer, my background is marketing, I’m not a person that talks a lot about … I don’t talk about sales or making a sale. To me, it’s about connecting and serving the world. Because my business has turned into a transformational business, it started out as a business building business, and it’s morphed because I’ve morphed into what really I’m being called to do and my own personal spiritual path, and because of that, my information has changed, but if I didn’t know how to deeply connect to using not only my own voice but also my marketing background, I would just be another voice out there in the millions that there’s the downside of the internet.
Debbie: 19:48 How do you stand out?
Chris: 19:50 Absolutely.
Debbie: 19:51 Because when I was first on, you stood out really easily. Now, anybody, we’re seeing kids that are 15 years old making millions of dollars online.
Chris: 20:00 I know. I know.
Debbie: 20:01 I’m like, “How is that possible? I want to know what that kid is doing.”
Chris: 20:06 Exactly. Another thing, Debbie, that stood out to me when we were talking is loyalty, and you have one of the most loyal followings that I’ve personally been able to talk to somebody who has. Can you tell us, and I think I already know the answer, when you shifted the focus from sales to serving, but how do you build …? First off, tell us about the loyalty that you’ve created in your business and how did you go about creating that?
Debbie: 20:38 Well, that’s a good question. I’m going to answer that by telling you something I did about … I don’t remember how long ago was this. It was about seven years ago that I was teaching a course called the 10 Mindset Program. It’s not a course I teach anymore, but it was fairly successful. The 10 Mindset Program was about what are the principles for an entrepreneur it takes for you to create the principles, to create a successful business. It wasn’t a course in how to become a better marketer.
Debbie: 21:21 When I say 10 mindset, I used to go run the country and I would predict somebody’s success standing in front of an audience. While I was talking to them, I could predict anybody’s level of success based on one question. I could tell you how successful you’re going to be in the next 12 months.
Chris: 21:40 Wow.
Debbie: 21:41 It was based on your mindset. I would go around and I’d ask people two questions. People were shocked when I started to talk about these statistics. I’d say, “Write down on a piece of paper how much money you wanna make in the next 12 months. How much money do you want to generate in the next 12 months, gross sales?” I don’t care what that number is. You could write 100,000. You could write a million. You could write 10 million. You could write 2000. It doesn’t matter to me. The next question was what’s your level of confidence between one and 10 that you will meet and or exceed that goal?
Debbie: 22:25 Then people will write down their number.
Chris: 22:27 That’s a tough question, Debbie. You put them right on the spot.
Debbie: 22:30 That’s between a scale of one to 10. I said, “Just be honest.” Then I give them a second. I go, “Now, go ahead if you want to change that number. You can either change your sales number, or you can change your level of confidence number. Go ahead if you want to or stand by it.” Then I would begin to tell people, “If you wrote down you’re a five, here’s how you think and here’s how long it’s going to take you. Here’s what your challenges are. And then if you were a six, here, the same thing. If you’re a seven, if you wrote down an eight, if we wrote down at nine, if you wrote down a 10,” and I explained the difference.
Debbie: 23:03 Now, I’m only explaining this story because first of all, people were shocked. It was like I was getting inside their heads, because I’d say, “If you’re an eight, here’s what your challenges are and blah, blah, blah, blah, and this is how long it’s going to take you to meet or exceed your goals.” I’ve worked with thousands of people, thousands, individually. I know how people think. There’s not a fear I haven’t heard when it comes to an entrepreneur, but here’s the thing. I started out one year and I was wondering people kept paying me for this program. They literally would pay me to repeat the program sometimes more than once.
Debbie: 23:42 They would pay, and so I started to see this. I started to see my students would take a course over again when I would promote it and they would pay to take it over again. I wasn’t changing the material a whole lot, and so I wanted to know what is working and what is working or what’s not working? Why do they keep taking this over again? I’m missing something. I need to know what it is. I called, and I talked to 50 of my students. Here’s what I found out about loyalty. Here’s what I found out. I found out one of the reasons why they were taking the course over again is because every time I said something, they heard it a little bit differently and it got them to their next step.
Debbie: 24:35 That makes sense, right? Have you ever listened to a Ted talk five times, and every time you heard it, you heard something a little different?
Chris: 24:42 Especially based on where I’m at in life, right?
Debbie: 24:45 That’s exactly it. That’s the first thing. The second thing I found out was not only were they taking personal development programs and business programs from me, but they were also spending money with other people. That was like, “Oh, wait a second.” That one is the second thing that was interesting to me. The third thing was interesting to me is they’d go off and they might go off and take somebody else’s programs, but they said they would always come back to me because they felt like I was telling them the truth, that I got them and I was telling the truth.
Chris: 25:24 Love it. I love it.
Debbie: 25:25 Is it anything to do with my marketing? No. It has to do with who I am being, because I believe so deeply in people and they got that. When I am working with somebody or when I’m speaking in front of an audience, I really believe in people more than a lot of times they believe in themselves, and so I will do whatever I can and keep holding up that mirror until they see what I see in them. I think that that translates into whatever I’m teaching, whatever the topic is I’m teaching.
Chris: 25:59 I agree. I agree. It’s a level of authenticity and a willingness through your passion to help them get to the next level. I say this all the time to people, it doesn’t matter the size of your business either. You bring your whole self to your business, so there is no area in your life that does not show in business. A lot of times, people don’t understand how their mindset shows up in their business. When they’re dealing with somebody like you that’s really helping them work through all of these, what we can call intangibles, it becomes very illuminating, especially when your presentation is authentic and it’s true.
Chris: 26:47 You’re not up there just trying to get them hyped, jump up and down, do 10 jumping jacks, and now run to the back of the room and get the program.
Debbie: 26:54 No. I’ll be honest. When I’m up there, I tell my personal story. I talk about the tragedies in my life. I talk about the challenges, but then I talk about how I overcame them. What people want is they want to know you’re real. They want to know that up the shoot. If you think that I’ve been successful at everything, I mean I’m going to be blatantly honest. I’ve had some things that I planned out, I strategized, I’m like, “This is it. This is my ticket to retirement.” I want to tell you crickets. Usually the things that I am for sure is going to be the biggest success is I mean I’ve had some serious bombs, and then there’s been times where I thought …
Debbie: 27:37 Now, remember direct marketing is all about testing, which is what drives Facebook ads, people that understand Facebook advertising. It’s all about testing, testing the offer, testing the format, testing the words, testing the color of the ad. All of those are direct marketing principles and that’s what drives it, right? I come from a blast way. Sometimes, I’m like, “Oh, you know what, let’s just try this.” I mean, what’s the worst that happens? It’s a bomb. I have to tell you sometimes that’s been my greatest success, but I just put something out there.
Debbie: 28:12 I mean, one of my greatest success is a couple of years ago, and it wasn’t for a good reason. I was really sick. I got really, really sick, and I wanted to do a promotion, but I couldn’t do it. I actually had to stop working for a few months. I had an event coming up in eight months. I thought this is the thing about loyalty of customers. I went out to just people who had previously taken a certain course from May. I’m trying to remember who I went to. It was a really small group of people, like a hundred people, that were people that knew me, had already spent a lot money with me.
Debbie: 28:53 I just sent out some emails. There was no landing page. There was no sales page, nothing. There was just a link to a shopping cart, and I sent out seven emails and said, “I’m going to give you guys the best deal ever because I love you, and I know you, and we’ve been in this journey together and you’ve been with me. You’ve been through all my highs and lows, and you stuck with me, and I want to see you because we’re going to go through the most transformational weekend of your life.” I generated, I don’t know, five or six figures through those seven emails with no landing page, no sales page.
Chris: 29:32 Wow. That’s your ability to connect though, Debbie.
Debbie: 29:39 Like I said, I’ve done the reverse.
Chris: 29:40 Yes.
Debbie: 29:40 But the landing page and the sales page up and marketing. This is why you have all the tools you do on ActiveCampaign. You have to see what’s working and what’s not working.
Chris: 29:57 That’s it. That’s the hardest part when you’re training marketers is I can always spot a novice marketer a mile away because they’re looking for that one method, that one strategy. It’s just like, “You know what, it worked over there, but it’s not going to …” You have to test everything, and you just have to be willing to try some stuff out, figure out what worked.
Debbie: 30:21 It did not work, and then see what does work. After being in business for, what, 25 years, I will say the two things that I’ve learned about myself, and maybe this is useful to any anybody else. One is I stay in my lane. What I mean by that is I know that there’s certain marketing methods and strategies that really are in sync with my personality. I love speaking, and I don’t love writing, but I do love speaking. If it’s fits something that’s going to be a webinar or speaking in front of an audience or something, that’s my lane.
Debbie: 31:12 I’m always going to be more successful in that rather than somebody else who’s made millions online using a technique that’s never going to be my … It’s not part of my personality. I tell people, “Find the thing that enhances your personality because it’s your personality and your passion that sells always.”
Chris: 31:37 That’s really good.
Debbie: 31:39 If you love to write, then writing’s going to be your lane. If you love to speak or if you don’t love to speak, but you’re okay speaking on a podcast, then do it that way, but stay in your lane, so if you’re going to do some kind of marketing technique, do something that enhances who you are. The second thing I learned, and this has happened over and over again, because I reinvented myself probably at least four times in this 25 years, literally reinvented completely different audience, different topic thing, and yet some people, there are still some die hards that have stayed with me no matter what I do, including changing my name, changing my … I mean, changing what I talk about and they’ve stayed with me, and that is the market will find you.
Debbie: 32:30 My biggest successes have been just by accident, but they’re defining moments and people don’t understand the power of a defining moment. Haven’t you ever had a defining moment where you just absolutely did not know what was going to happen, and when you look in retrospect, it literally changed the course the direction of your life?
Chris: 32:54 It changed everything, because you had to answer a call that you weren’t anticipating.
Debbie: 32:57 [inaudible 00:32:57] anticipating. I’ve had that more times than I can count, and that was me, but I answered that call. That’s how I ended up starting out helping small businesses because my background was corporate marketing. I stood in front of a room of entrepreneurs, and they literally swamped me because nobody was helping them. I remember that was in the 90s. Nobody was helping the small biz, so the start of that was like an accident and didn’t know, but I answered that call. Then helping the 10 mindset was also something the entrepreneurs found me, but then because I’m a spiritual person, because I’m an intuitive, and I have this whole other side of me that I shared with the public, all of a sudden I started getting a market that at the time nobody was serving.
Debbie: 33:50 Holistic healers, energy workers, very spiritual people, they were all underground and just lost. They had no idea how to market their business, so that became a niche for me because nobody was serving them. Now, I serve a niche that, again, very few people are serving, and that’s the people that are highly sensitive and are empathic. That has been the most profitable niche. That’s where I shared with you how I got like the biggest results of my 25 year career was because I ended up serving a market that nobody was talking to.
Chris: 34:28 You never stop serving, Debbie. I think, if there’s anything, if you want to simply put it, you never stop serving and you were willing to become who you needed to become to meet the need, Debbie.
Debbie: 34:40 Well, thank you. I appreciate that. That’s a very sweet thing to say.
Chris: 34:44 This has been amazing for me. I know it’s been amazing for our listeners. Debbie, if someone wants to get in contact with you, where should they go?
Debbie: 34:57 They can just go to my website, debbielynngrace.com. Then personally just on my website, it’s email@example.com if they want to email me for any reason. I think that you said it is that there’s nothing … The more you bring yourself to the table and what you’re doing that allows you to be fully expressed out in your business, whatever that business is, and that shows your passion and drive, no matter what you’re offering, it’ll show up in your business. That’s when you start to see the kind of results you’re looking for.
Chris: 35:41 Oh man, Debbie, thank you again. This has been great. I can’t wait to get this into the ears of the community.
Debbie: 35:49 Thank you.
Chris: 35:50 Again, thank you for your time, Debbie. I’m really appreciative of it.
Debbie: 35:52 Thank you, appreciate it.
Chris: 35:54 I’ll see you online, Debbie.
Debbie: 35:56 All right, thank you. Bye, bye everybody.